JSngry

http://twotonbaker.com/2ton/music/mp3s/m-960-dancers.mp3

Great musicians. House rhythm section for Stax for so many years, and the results speak for themselves.

"Time Is Tight".

I just turned 18 myself...

So, who did the tune first?

You're more than welcome, sir! Probably too late for you, KEvin, but if anybody else is planning a Disney vacation, I really do recommend dealing directly w/Disney for planning, reservations, etc.. Their rates are as good as you can get, and they have a lot of "insider" info and plans that the ordinary travel agent probably doesn't know about.

That was quick. How did he manage to get himself banned within a couple of days? I guess his reputation preceeded him. Probably after he started a short-lived thread about the death of the Pope entitled "The Pulp Is Dead". Up and gone in less than 12 hours, I think. That was a serious post, Dan!

That was quick. How did he manage to get himself banned within a couple of days? I guess his reputation preceeded him. Probably after he started a short-lived thread about the death of the Pope entitled "The Pulp Is Dead". Up and gone in less than 12 hours, I think. .;;;lll

They also used some of the graphic notation on the cover, iirc.

A closeup:

Would it be a fair assumption that most jazz fans who really dig Graettinger probably do enjoy/explore 20th Century classical music to one degree or antother, and that those who don't, don't? And another thing - is anybody besides me at least a little bugged that they couldn't find room for at least one photo of Graettinger somewhere in the CD package? Here's one from the aforementioned KENTON ERA set, an apparent "peer review" by Johnny Richards, Frank Marks, Kenton, and Rugolo.

YES to birthday!

It was. One really barbed reply from that Monte (or is it Mone?) cat, and that was that. Yeah, I know - get a life.

That was quick. How did he manage to get himself banned within a couple of days? I guess his reputation preceeded him. Probably after he started a short-lived thread about the death of the Pope entitled "The Pulp Is Dead". Up and gone in less than 12 hours, I think.

One of the first life lessons I learned from an older jazz musician (Roger Boykin, I believe it was) has proven one of the most useful and consistently beneficial - never trust anybody who neither smokes, drinks, nor curses at least occasionally.

Is it what happens to love when you lose grip of the Love Handles?

A discographical question - are there any recordings known to exist of the 1948 live premiere of "City Of Glass", of of any other live Kenton performances of Graettinger's work other than the Innovations Orchestra's performance of "Reflections", which is found on a Laserlight CD?

I believe I heard statutory rape.

But...it's on TV!

Just finished a refresher listen to this disc, and what I was most struck by this time was how much rhythm there is in Graettinger's music. Not "swing" rhythm (usually), but rhythm nevertheless, and strong, pulsating rhythm at that, multi-layered/leveled rhythms that play off of each other, that exist as seperate entities yet connect to a larger whole. Pretty amazing stuff, actually, and totally original, I think. How much of this was a direct, literal result of his system of graphic notation (a system I've yet to see delved into to any satisfactory degree, unfortunately), or how much of it was a result of his using the notational system as a means to a to some degree predetermined end, I can't even begin to speculate. Not that it really matters... Another thing that struck me was the arrangement of "You Go To My Head". I'd had this for years on the old THE KENTON ERA Capitol LP Box set, which was a collection of live recordings and studio "leftovers", and in that context, it struck me as a refreshing oddity of sorts. But heard in the context of an all-Graettinger program, I find it to be a somewaht sly "serious joke", at least in terms of the relationship between the song title and the arrangement. That creep-crawly sax section figure is obviously going to somebody's head, and it's fascinating to hear how it recedes into the subconscious for the second A-section, only to re-emerge in a different, more fully-blown & troublesome manifestation in the second half of the bridge, threatening a full-fledged takeover of the head in question. The end of the melody offers no happy endings either, other than that creepy-crawly figure never really gets the upper hand. In a prior post, I mentioned how Stan Kenton's music often lacked an "organic" quality to me. By that, I meant that too often I hear it as either a superficial grafting of elements of an exaggeration of otherwise normal, mediocre even, elements, elements that can be found in more natural (and dare I say, "healthy") manifestations elsewhere. Such is not the case with Bob Graettinger's work, however. This cat might have be a loner, an eccentric, a genuine freak for that matter, but by god, he was in his world all the way, and there was no room inhis world for compromise, cheapness, "career moves", or anything else that interfered with his vision. If it was a vision that ultimately had a built-in limitation of scope, so be it. It was his vision, and he pursued it undauntingly in his writing. The usual criticisms of this music is that it's "cold", "mechanical", or best/worst of all, that it "isn't jazz". "Cold" is a matter of perception, I suppose, but I hear/feel it as more "detached", the product of a observational mind presenting portraits of what he sees than somebody attempting to find and define themselves through their music. If anything, this music is extremely "self-less" in many ways (along those lines, I'd love to hear what Lee Konitz has to say about playing this music, and about Graettinger himself...). "Mechanical" might well be an issue of interpretation - this music was difficult then, and it reamins difficult today. The original difficulty, though was not just technical, it was conceptual. How do you play a piece of music for which there is no real stylistic precedent? What is it supposed to sound "like"? To that end, though, I think that Kenton's bands gave these pieces as good a reading as possible at the time, and in the case of John Grass's amazing work on "A Horn", better than could have been hoped for by any reasonable mind. Still, a piece like "Incident In Jazz" (or as it was apparently originally, and more intriguingly, titled, "Incident In Sound") virtually BEGS to be played by a band that has had the luxury of digesting the concepts of Tristano, Braxton, etc. Someday, perhaps... Still, I think that the band(s) play this music remarkably well and organically. Contrast their readings of these pieces to the Herman band's somewhat stilted reading of Stravinsky's "Ebony Concerto", and I think the difference should be apparent. Now for the big one - Is It Jazz? I say that if you feel the need to ask, you're missing the point. Maybe it is, maybe it isn't. To me, that's like not seeing the forest for the trees. Forget about the "labels", this is music, period, the product of a unique mind in a unique set of circumstances. It is what it is, period, and you take it or leave it entirely on its own terms. A higher mark of artistic integrety I'd be hard-pressed to come up with. To that end, and to possibly fan the flames of controversy just a little, I find it interesting that in The World Of Stan Kenton, a world where words like "Innovations", "Progressive", "Adventures", and "Creative" were too often used, in my opinion, as answers to questions that had never really been asked and/or examined in the first place, that the music of Bob Graettinger still stirs up so much ambivalence and outright dislike. Here, for once, was a music that was truly innovative, progressive, adventurous, and creative, and it still sends many of the Kenton camp running for cover. Even Kenton himself admitted to not having a clue as to whether or not it was "good". Well, DUH! It just goes to show you - be careful what you ask for. You might just get it!

Why does "nuptials" always sound inherently obscene? "Hey Rocco - get a load of the nuptials on that babe. WHOO WHOO!"

Also, I hope that this thread is able to remain focused on the album in question (which is some of the most organic music ever presented under the aegis of Stan Kenton), rather than evolving/deteriorating into a Love Kenton/Hate Kenton type thing. I fear that I'm doing more than my share of contributing to that sort of devolution, so I'll stop it. Of course, responses and counter-arguments are expected, but hopefully not at the expense of the focus of the thread.

Well, yeah, sort of. But I've done enough research (in books and with real people) and such to realize the "real" perception of Kenton's ouvre by his devotees of the time and just how "radical" it was perceived as being by some. The thing is, most of the music doesn't hold up in that light for me. It did when I was young and relatively uninformed, but not any more. I can appreciate the spirit of the music (and the appeal of that spirit to the fans of the day), but the music itself seems, usually, more of a collection of devices (most of them borrowed, at that) than it does an organic musical expression of a distinct viewpoint. That in and of itself might represent an actual viewpoint, I know, but if one of the things that music should do is give a picture of where and how you live, most (and I stress, MOST, not all) of the Kenton output to me suggests a world lived in studios playing soundtrack gigs and/or spent studying other musics in the hopes of finding some new inspiration therein, albeit with a tendency to take the first thing that sticks and run with it, never coming back for more/deeper investigation. In the latter regard, it is in many ways the ultimate "White" jazz in both style and motivation, at least for a certain type of Whiteness, the type that comes from someplace not altogether to their liking, and is looking for someplace better, but not necessarily too different. Nothing wrong with that at all, it's a legitimate sociolgical phenomenon, but it's just not, um...relevant to my lifestyle at this juncture. Now that's not to say that I dislike all of Kenton's output. Far from it. I very much dig the Graettinger stuff, many of the various Holman things over the years, the very first, Balboa-era band, some of the Dee Barton things, etc. I even dug the Neophonic album, and I know I'm in the minority on that one! But overall, the music just doesn't hit me where I live, nor does does it suggest to me a place where I would want to live for too very long. To those for whom it does, hey, more power to them, to each thier own, etc., and look at the bright side - if you're worried about overcrowding, I'm one less you gotta worry about!

Nothing but the best wishes for today and henceforth!

Well, in my case, I've heard pretty much all the albums, spent 4+ years in a music school that rather zealously preached The Gospel According To Stan Kenton, personally played a fair number of charts from the library, and heard the 70s band live about 5 or 6 times, spending time hanging out w/the band a few off those times. So when I say that there's very little Kenton that I truly dig, a little more that I hate, and even more, the vast majority, actually, that leaves me stunningly indifferent, it is not an uninformed opinion, believe me. As for the Easron book (thanks for the reminder as to the author), I distinfly remember the Furor Amongst The Faithful upon its release, which seemed to be caused mostly by the numerous "personal" revelations about Kenton, amongst them that he was a heavy drinker (he was) and that he sometimes was an unfaithful husband (ditto). I don't remember any questioning of the portrait of Graettinger, but then again, Graettinger has long been a figure that many True Kenton Believers view with an odd mixture of fear, loathing, suspicion, and justification. No sense in rehashing the debate over Kenton, which ultimately, as in all such matters, comes down to what one likes and what one finds personally relevant. I jsut don't like the Marsallisian implication that "if you don't like it, it's because ou haven't heard enough of it", or some such.