robertoart

Some of the UK readers will know who he is/was. UK Jazz writer. The Cabell attack (for that's what it essentially is) was part of his short overview of BJP's Blue Note output in his encyclopedia. I remember reading it in a bookstore, before the internet days, so had never really come across any other perspectives on Cabell and the albums he was on. I remember feeling a bit gutted and hurt reading it. I guess I took what I was responding to in the music as being pissed on by Cook. I was young then, so doubted my own mind and heart. As you say in the earlier post -JSngry I know myself now so I can honestly know Cook was no more in a position to be authoritative of the music than I was - and he was responding to the music from a point of view that was wrongheaded.

So you never felt Marvin Cabell's playing was 'wretched' like it was described by Richard Cook in the Jazz Encyclopedia. Obviously you and Richard are from non affiliated tribes

I'm too scared to open the link.

And he always knew how to best utilise a good Fusion guitarist. Give em a long solo in a well composed vocal song with interesting chord changes.

And I forgot to say, Pharoah Sanders beautiful, beautiful big tone saturated both venues. The Pub and the Concert Hall.

Moments of weakness JSngry?

Yes, I think you may have nailed it there. (Isn't Literary Studies a form of art too, after all?) Oh yeah! It's all Art in the big sense of the word. Writing, Music, Visual, Dance, etc.

How do board members relate to the term Americana. For instance - is it something you think of as a variation on Country music - or a wider term dealing with a broader part of American Culture overall. Indeed, is it a term that is recognisable in America? - or is it something that outsiders use more to describe a certain aspect of American culture? wikipedia gives two definitions - one an Alt. Country music meaning My link and another a cultural one, My link Interestingly, the cultural one - uses this point re- Jazz. "The AMA considers Americana, as a genre, to be any music that "honors and is derived from the traditions of American roots music." According to them, the music is nostalgic and sympathetic to American culture traditions which incorporates classical man-made sounds. Like jazz, it is said to span from Miles Davis to Harry Connick to the Preservation Hall.[19][17]'

Not thinking so much literally, but it did make me think of my own art student undergrad days, and just how distant and off the radar Jazz was from the student Visual Art community. Apart from some of the older lecturer's - who were also players - I was out on my own. And it got me thinking that possibly, the post beatnik Ornette at the Five Spot era, might have been the last serious social and cultural connection for Jazz and Visual Art. I think by the early 60's Rock n Roll had became the music Art students most identified with. And from then on whatever outlying trend setting or precursive variations of it that emerged. For instance, Punk and Post-Punk, New Wave (of UK and US variety) etc., are all identified with the marketing and influence of the Visual Arts. Call it the Warhol effect. I suspect he didn't like Jazz much. Actually, over here, one of the really big cultural and stylistic influences on local Contemporary Artists was Americana. Huge Visual Arts sub culture around that. You couldn't swing a cat without knocking off someone's cowboy hat. I think the Literary community may have kept Aesthetic kindred spirits with Jazz a bit more. With the association between Jazz Imagery and Noir. So I tend to associate your stereotype with Literary Students or other Humanities based drop-outs

Scandinavian Winters.

Seen Pharoah twice as well. Once in a sweaty Pub atmosphere and once in a Concert Hall/Festival setting. Playing essentially the same set-concept-music and notes. The Pub experience was visceral, bluesy and joyous. They did a great Ole. The Concert Hall experience felt distant, pre-meditated and...repertory

Any art students I ever knew of were not listening to Jazz. Not since the early Sixties anyway. Very divergent universes. Their listening would more likely have been, Eno, PIL, Nick Cave or other White Neo-Tribalists...probably Neubauten or even early Talking Heads etc...etc... Jazz would have been far to distant and bourgeois, and Radical Jazz... a bit to difficult. Maybe Peter Brotzmann would have snuck in there a bit with the German art students....they always were a bit more Sturm und Drang Although by 92 the digital age was about to start kicking in. So maybe something like Sigur Rós...or for something more earthy but still essentially minimalist...The Dirty Three. Maybe even The Necks, but that would have been a bit to 'Jazz'.

I like this one too. It's like a half way point between Bobby Rush and Disco-Johnny Guitar Watson fighting their way out of a Smooth Jazz soup. I love it.

Factoring in the very real impact of technology on information dissemination, my point is that a natural evolution such as this is part and parcel of "the human spirit" - but so is an enforced conformity/anti-evolution (aka "consistency") in the service of interests other than those of the immediate participants, one that is put into place to ensure control of both input and output. At some point, resistance becomes futile and volunteered slavery sets in, which is all well and good as long as we know it for what it is. It's when it reaches the point where we think it's something other than that that fucks people up. That's what I'm seeing in LCJO, and that's what I've experienced in waaaay to much "classical" music. Too bad, because there's some "fine music" there. But it's over as far as being relevant as anything other than an "institution", and jazz is irrevocably headed the same way. Watch it happen and ask yourself does history repeat itself, and if so, what can we learn from watching it do so. But don't worry - there will come a time when Wise People speak of Ellington as Wise People Today speak of Mozart. The Tale shall be told, and believed, for All The Same Reasons too! I hope I'm dead by then. I know the music will be. And is there really an audience left for Jazz that isn't repertory in some way. In the sense that it's a sit down and listen experience. So even if the music is not repertory in itself, the listening environment is. Apart from that - in a small bar atmosphere - where the interaction is more 'active' - who is there to make up an audience beyond the vested interests of those involved in the 'academic music education culture, + the small number of contemporary boutique replicants of the club goers/audience who once were. Perhaps what sustains the music as a living entity - across the board - are the Jazz Festivals circuits? But these seem to be increasingly just excuses for any kind of 'roots' music experience - that often has little relevance to a Jazz improvising purpose. On the other hand, although Classical music is necessarily structured and interpretable within a narrower range of options, perhaps the long term future for the emergent 'Jazz Historical Canon' might be somewhat brighter - in the way that repertory in literature/theatre - like Shakespeare - is constantly re-invigorated and radicalised with each different generation. Jazz - with it's spaces for improvisational freedom - might be able to bridge the gap in similar ways. In the way that someone from Shakespeare's time may be able to recognise the words - but the contemporary context those words are put to use in are different dimensions. Which is I guess what Larry Kart and Allen Lowe are essentially saying re- Threadgill and Brecht. Although I'm also projecting this way way into the future. Admittedly, envisioning this kind of future for the 'canon', might be a kind of musical dystopia for many

I tend to agree with this. I think that with a lot of demanding listening, you are not always cognitively present for the entire ride. Although I know over time, many demanding sessions that I may have overall loved when I was younger - for the 'vibe' and certain choice 'moments' - I find I return to later in life - and they are almost conversational Overall, I probably prefer to be immersed in the music at length (mostly with headphone listening), but smaller bursts (or musical vignettes) might be just as illuminating. Maybe for the musician, the actual playing of long Improvised or Classical pieces is also a similar 'in and out' experience (concentration wise).

i was surprised that 60 Minutes mentioned nothing about Avant and the missing royalties. i don't believe the above is a fair statement. he asked the obvious questions of Clarence, who was extremely rude and uncooperative. Yes, that is true. Clarence Avant (as far as what was shown), did nothing to clarify the matter, whether he had anything to hide or not. I would add though, that there seemed to be a sub-text that South Africa took royalties which made the way to the US but not to Rodriguez. This may or may not be true. So the question remains, did the initial releases sell in South Africa - or were the subsequent South African releases 'bootlegs' or official contractual re-issues - with a money chain back to Rodriguez? And all this in the context of Apartheid era South Africa. However, perhaps the film-maker was in possession of facts or accusations that we as viewers were not able to be made aware of. What would be interesting, is to know what happened in Australia. The albums would have made a fair amount of money out here, and were probably being re-pressed to meet a steady ongoing demand right through the Seventies, and Rodriguez was touring here then, so it wasn't as if he was the invisible man. So if those Royalties got back to Rodriguez, it would raise a question mark as to why the South African money didn't.

No. She's still got a frog in her throat.

Then I suspect you would probably have to get rid of a lot of music from your collection (and collective listening experience). Because I'm sure the spirit of what Marsalis said - is/was -echoed publicly and privately by many Black American musicians. The music is Wynton Marsalis's cultural heritage, how he chooses to respond and proceed with it is his business. Nothing to do with the 'reverse racism' thing as you see it. Nothing whatsoever. And obviously he has mediated that stance over the years. But it is obviously a cultural and political position Black American musicians keep returning too in one form or another. I wonder why? I am sure you are correct. I would have been really surprised to see the Art Ensemble with a white guy for instance. The thing is, Wynton verbalized it. And yet, he turned right around and made a fortune (and a Grammy) playing classical music.....which really I have no problem with. But it is the hypocrisy of the situation that chaps my ass. Well I suppose another way to look at it might be this kind of hypothetical. Say Marsalis has a choice between two listeners. One a young African American listener, another someone else. I'm sure he would choose the African American listener for a myriad of reasons. One of which might be that the music as Marsalis sees it is more essential to the cultural-heritage (there's that word again), of the African American listener. Of course in an ideal world, Marsalis (and the Art Ensemble and everyone else) would claim both listeners. But I guess Marsalis can't control that outcome, but can control who he has on the bandstand at least. So I don't see it as a racist situation but one of cultural integrity. Not so much exclusion as inclusion, but an inclusion weighted towards culture not race. I just don't see the 'reverse racism' perspective as correct here. And I don't think there can be such a thing as reverse racism in a social or cultural situation where one race has a legacy of entrenched domination and supremacy over another. Re- Allen Lowe's argument that both Black and White is his American cultural heritage, I think the history of the music as you play it - and continue re-imagining it -is your cultural heritage in a kind of Phenomenological way - but doesn't have the potential for the Ontological weight (and sense of historical urgency) it would carry for an African American person, although I admit (Allen) - you are a rare breed - who has 'a lot' of intellectual and music-cultural intensity invested in this argument. What would convince me more - is if there was a groundswell (or indeed any swell) in this discourse - from African American musicians and intellectuals themselves - saying something like - yeah, the music was basically ours - we thought it, we played it and we taught it to you (Non African Americans) - but now - seen as how we can all play it together - we can both (African American and Non-African American), claim an equal stake in it's future - because it now means the same to both of us. I just don't see those arguments coming from Black musicians. And I also don't think this is all really a bourgeois issue either, as you have previously implied. In the sense that I don't think being Black, privleged and closeted overrides this issue in terms of the essence of the cultural heritage legacy. It might (as you have said) from the perspective of creativity and formal advancements, but not from the most important thing.

Well. I think you'll all enjoy the doco. Just gotta put up with those bloody South Africans Please report back with opinions if anyone feels so inclined The doco's getting a good run over here at one of our independent inner city cinemas. I expect it's attracting good audiences through a combination of young-interested cinema goers, and Rodriguez's significant Aus/NZ baby boomer fan base. I got to see the US 60 Minutes profile, which was also very moving. It showed how frail and fragile Rodriguez is at 70, in ways the documentary possibly didn't.

Then I suspect you would probably have to get rid of a lot of music from your collection (and collective listening experience). Because I'm sure the spirit of what Marsalis said - is/was -echoed publicly and privately by many Black American musicians. The music is Wynton Marsalis's cultural heritage, how he chooses to respond and proceed with it is his business. Nothing to do with the 'reverse racism' thing as you see it. Nothing whatsoever. And obviously he has mediated that stance over the years. But it is obviously a cultural and political position Black American musicians keep returning too in one form or another. I wonder why?

Heard Rodriguez was featured on 60 Minutes last night. Anyone else seen the documentary yet. Rostasi? I saw it last night. Would be interesting to hear opinions. The producer tried to frame Motown's Clarence Avant as the potential source of Rodriguez's missing South African Apartheid era royalties. As well as overlooking his substantial Aus/NZ success - for the sake of the sensationalist narrative I guess. I thought when it focussed on Rodriguez himself, and his family and music- it was very moving.

Django! Really?

He and Richard Evans are both given production credits on the 'Mixed Bag' album, so you're probably right regardless of the labeling on the single. I also agree with you about the original being strong. Two different musical experiences, both of value. She's interesting - another one of those singers who didn't fit categorization well and likely suffered commercially for it (primo examples are the great Terry Callier, Gil Scott-Heron, but there were others). Terry Callier. There's a name I don't hear enough of anymore. I was lucky enough to witness an intimate club gig in Australia in 2004 (I think). Callier with just Bass player and Percussionist. Didn't know much about him at all, went with no expectations. Witnessed one of the most memorable gigs I've ever seen. Not what I'd call a big crowd, but unforgettable night. Pure vocal music.

That's very interesting. That passage you highlight from the liner notes stood out and remained with me as well when I first read it (albeit via the early 90's cd issue ). I often recall it in my mind when I think about things related to the music. Certainly the music isn't ambitious in the way so much Jazz was/is, but it ain't easy to learn to play either. It's still really the earthy side of Be-bop (or at least Babyface is - the music Hobsbawm had in mind might be from closer to the R&B spectrum perhaps? Who is Marlowe Morris MG?) Hobsbawm seems to be from an earlier generation of Left wing thinkers that I know not much about, but I am getting the feeling he was like a 60's Slavoj Zizek perhaps, in terms of being a kind of Left wing public intellectual. That quote made a big impression on me as well, but I feel somewhat saddened that such a basic recognition of the basic humanity of the whole thing inevitable became a political statement. Not saying that I don't understand why it was, but geez, people going out for drinks and dancing and having a boisterous good time to the accompaniment of music of a similar quality, that's a pretty basic human activity, It's pretty damn depressing to think that it took a "political statement" or whatever to see it as simply as it was. Well most of the Blue Note liner notes seem to be written with White people in mind.