robertoart

I tend to agree with this. I think that with a lot of demanding listening, you are not always cognitively present for the entire ride. Although I know over time, many demanding sessions that I may have overall loved when I was younger - for the 'vibe' and certain choice 'moments' - I find I return to later in life - and they are almost conversational Overall, I probably prefer to be immersed in the music at length (mostly with headphone listening), but smaller bursts (or musical vignettes) might be just as illuminating. Maybe for the musician, the actual playing of long Improvised or Classical pieces is also a similar 'in and out' experience (concentration wise).

i was surprised that 60 Minutes mentioned nothing about Avant and the missing royalties. i don't believe the above is a fair statement. he asked the obvious questions of Clarence, who was extremely rude and uncooperative. Yes, that is true. Clarence Avant (as far as what was shown), did nothing to clarify the matter, whether he had anything to hide or not. I would add though, that there seemed to be a sub-text that South Africa took royalties which made the way to the US but not to Rodriguez. This may or may not be true. So the question remains, did the initial releases sell in South Africa - or were the subsequent South African releases 'bootlegs' or official contractual re-issues - with a money chain back to Rodriguez? And all this in the context of Apartheid era South Africa. However, perhaps the film-maker was in possession of facts or accusations that we as viewers were not able to be made aware of. What would be interesting, is to know what happened in Australia. The albums would have made a fair amount of money out here, and were probably being re-pressed to meet a steady ongoing demand right through the Seventies, and Rodriguez was touring here then, so it wasn't as if he was the invisible man. So if those Royalties got back to Rodriguez, it would raise a question mark as to why the South African money didn't.

No. She's still got a frog in her throat.

Then I suspect you would probably have to get rid of a lot of music from your collection (and collective listening experience). Because I'm sure the spirit of what Marsalis said - is/was -echoed publicly and privately by many Black American musicians. The music is Wynton Marsalis's cultural heritage, how he chooses to respond and proceed with it is his business. Nothing to do with the 'reverse racism' thing as you see it. Nothing whatsoever. And obviously he has mediated that stance over the years. But it is obviously a cultural and political position Black American musicians keep returning too in one form or another. I wonder why? I am sure you are correct. I would have been really surprised to see the Art Ensemble with a white guy for instance. The thing is, Wynton verbalized it. And yet, he turned right around and made a fortune (and a Grammy) playing classical music.....which really I have no problem with. But it is the hypocrisy of the situation that chaps my ass. Well I suppose another way to look at it might be this kind of hypothetical. Say Marsalis has a choice between two listeners. One a young African American listener, another someone else. I'm sure he would choose the African American listener for a myriad of reasons. One of which might be that the music as Marsalis sees it is more essential to the cultural-heritage (there's that word again), of the African American listener. Of course in an ideal world, Marsalis (and the Art Ensemble and everyone else) would claim both listeners. But I guess Marsalis can't control that outcome, but can control who he has on the bandstand at least. So I don't see it as a racist situation but one of cultural integrity. Not so much exclusion as inclusion, but an inclusion weighted towards culture not race. I just don't see the 'reverse racism' perspective as correct here. And I don't think there can be such a thing as reverse racism in a social or cultural situation where one race has a legacy of entrenched domination and supremacy over another. Re- Allen Lowe's argument that both Black and White is his American cultural heritage, I think the history of the music as you play it - and continue re-imagining it -is your cultural heritage in a kind of Phenomenological way - but doesn't have the potential for the Ontological weight (and sense of historical urgency) it would carry for an African American person, although I admit (Allen) - you are a rare breed - who has 'a lot' of intellectual and music-cultural intensity invested in this argument. What would convince me more - is if there was a groundswell (or indeed any swell) in this discourse - from African American musicians and intellectuals themselves - saying something like - yeah, the music was basically ours - we thought it, we played it and we taught it to you (Non African Americans) - but now - seen as how we can all play it together - we can both (African American and Non-African American), claim an equal stake in it's future - because it now means the same to both of us. I just don't see those arguments coming from Black musicians. And I also don't think this is all really a bourgeois issue either, as you have previously implied. In the sense that I don't think being Black, privleged and closeted overrides this issue in terms of the essence of the cultural heritage legacy. It might (as you have said) from the perspective of creativity and formal advancements, but not from the most important thing.

Well. I think you'll all enjoy the doco. Just gotta put up with those bloody South Africans Please report back with opinions if anyone feels so inclined The doco's getting a good run over here at one of our independent inner city cinemas. I expect it's attracting good audiences through a combination of young-interested cinema goers, and Rodriguez's significant Aus/NZ baby boomer fan base. I got to see the US 60 Minutes profile, which was also very moving. It showed how frail and fragile Rodriguez is at 70, in ways the documentary possibly didn't.

Then I suspect you would probably have to get rid of a lot of music from your collection (and collective listening experience). Because I'm sure the spirit of what Marsalis said - is/was -echoed publicly and privately by many Black American musicians. The music is Wynton Marsalis's cultural heritage, how he chooses to respond and proceed with it is his business. Nothing to do with the 'reverse racism' thing as you see it. Nothing whatsoever. And obviously he has mediated that stance over the years. But it is obviously a cultural and political position Black American musicians keep returning too in one form or another. I wonder why?

Heard Rodriguez was featured on 60 Minutes last night. Anyone else seen the documentary yet. Rostasi? I saw it last night. Would be interesting to hear opinions. The producer tried to frame Motown's Clarence Avant as the potential source of Rodriguez's missing South African Apartheid era royalties. As well as overlooking his substantial Aus/NZ success - for the sake of the sensationalist narrative I guess. I thought when it focussed on Rodriguez himself, and his family and music- it was very moving.

Django! Really?

He and Richard Evans are both given production credits on the 'Mixed Bag' album, so you're probably right regardless of the labeling on the single. I also agree with you about the original being strong. Two different musical experiences, both of value. She's interesting - another one of those singers who didn't fit categorization well and likely suffered commercially for it (primo examples are the great Terry Callier, Gil Scott-Heron, but there were others). Terry Callier. There's a name I don't hear enough of anymore. I was lucky enough to witness an intimate club gig in Australia in 2004 (I think). Callier with just Bass player and Percussionist. Didn't know much about him at all, went with no expectations. Witnessed one of the most memorable gigs I've ever seen. Not what I'd call a big crowd, but unforgettable night. Pure vocal music.

That's very interesting. That passage you highlight from the liner notes stood out and remained with me as well when I first read it (albeit via the early 90's cd issue ). I often recall it in my mind when I think about things related to the music. Certainly the music isn't ambitious in the way so much Jazz was/is, but it ain't easy to learn to play either. It's still really the earthy side of Be-bop (or at least Babyface is - the music Hobsbawm had in mind might be from closer to the R&B spectrum perhaps? Who is Marlowe Morris MG?) Hobsbawm seems to be from an earlier generation of Left wing thinkers that I know not much about, but I am getting the feeling he was like a 60's Slavoj Zizek perhaps, in terms of being a kind of Left wing public intellectual. That quote made a big impression on me as well, but I feel somewhat saddened that such a basic recognition of the basic humanity of the whole thing inevitable became a political statement. Not saying that I don't understand why it was, but geez, people going out for drinks and dancing and having a boisterous good time to the accompaniment of music of a similar quality, that's a pretty basic human activity, It's pretty damn depressing to think that it took a "political statement" or whatever to see it as simply as it was. Well most of the Blue Note liner notes seem to be written with White people in mind.

Ding. I think we have a winner. Actually you might be right in terms of the amount of construction and invention in his longer solos. The Vanguard stuff (the LP selection of tracks, I mean) is a benchmark. A lot of his records don't really show what he can do though. Yes. Admittedly, most of my understanding of the inexhaustible invention of Rollins is anecdotally validated by the opinion of others. Usually from his live performances. I haven't listened to nearly as much Rollins as I have Coltrane. Indeed the 'legend' of Rollins seems based on these very qualities in performance. I never really think of him as a speedy player though, the way I do Griffin. Even if there's probably a ton of recorded evidence that he is if he wants to be. Tal Farlow is another one notorious for his tempo's, but I don't consider him a master of melodic invention so much, same way early Benson wasn't. Who are the Piano players that embody these qualities? I suppose Oscar Peterson is yet another that falls into the fast but generic category as well?

From All Music Guide. MG Yes indeed. He used to tour Australia a lot a few years ago. Very renowned for being just as skilled at organ and guitar. I didn't know he was a child prodigy though. Or should I say - a near infant prodigy.

Ding. I think we have a winner.

So anyone heard this yet? So what else is out there circulating amongst 'collectors'?

The Hobsbawm 'diary' link is a great read. So Marlowe Morris is definitely on the Jazz side of Blues? Wild Bill Davis like perhaps. And here's the sound itself - to use an old Australian colloquialism - 'shit hot!" I totally get where Hobsbawm was coming from hearing this.

George Benson and Ronnie Cuber in that ridiculously hyperactive band with Lonnie Smith? Although I suppose the music is driven more by energy and fast chops than by nimble 'ideas' based improv? It's an interesting distinction though. Coltrane? But then people say even Coltrane is relying more on the Harmonic concept and the patterns and scales that go with it, rather than 'pure' melodic invention. I love hearing Braxton play at fast tempos, also on standards and modal stuff. That 10foot saxaphone slows him down though

That's very interesting. That passage you highlight from the liner notes stood out and remained with me as well when I first read it (albeit via the early 90's cd issue ). I often recall it in my mind when I think about things related to the music. Certainly the music isn't ambitious in the way so much Jazz was/is, but it ain't easy to learn to play either. It's still really the earthy side of Be-bop (or at least Babyface is - the music Hobsbawm had in mind might be from closer to the R&B spectrum perhaps? Who is Marlowe Morris MG?) Hobsbawm seems to be from an earlier generation of Left wing thinkers that I know not much about, but I am getting the feeling he was like a 60's Slavoj Zizek perhaps, in terms of being a kind of Left wing public intellectual.

0-0 No Eric Clapton or Sting either.

My link

Just found this video on youtube! A nice recent snippet of Mel Rhyne and Calvin Keys.

Me too. Me too

That's an interesting mix of soul and jazz on those labels. I only knew of it through the Larry Young album. But knowing the Tyrone Washington love on this board l'm sure many will be familiar with it. RegrettabIy, I don't know enough about the Soul music of the time to be too familiar with a lot of the artists . But it was interesting to see Lucky Peterson being recorded as a 5 year old? I know of the great tradition in Black music to record and celebrate the talents of the very young ie., little Georgie Benson, Stevie Wonder etc. but 5yo seems to be pushing it

Australia's funny like that. But it's becoming more circumspect with regards to larrikins like Rex. My link It will be interesting to see if Hawthorn make the Grand Final again next year. If they do, I don't think they'll lose it a second time.

It looks like this guy made the move straight from country football (I think that translates to Minor Leagues in the US at least), to Canada. But the other Aussies in the story (playing in the US) are all well known ex-AFL stars. I think this trend will only get bigger. And now with the success of Mike Pike it might be a two way street. Cross cultural sporting exchanges like this might be good for these blokes. Knock a bit of Cosmopolitanism into them

Well I don't quite know how to begin to tell you about good old Rex Not retired exactly, more kind of 'moved on' by his network 3AW and Channel Seven. Or maybe he changed networks and it didn't work out. But I heard recently that he commentates still for one of the AFL in-house affiliates. Rex was/is an interesting character to say the least. He was a moderately successful Footballer of the Sixties/Seventies, who had quite a long career despite not being a true champion. He was around the periphery of the Sports-media world here for a long time - until somewhere along the line he started a fishing show on TV and became kind of a cult figure. As you know his commentary style, this will make sense I guess Anyway, with the combination of the fishing show and his Football commentary, he went from cult figure to a very big mainstream celebrity, for quite a while. Eventually age and over exposure got the better of him. As he began his footy career at my team Richmond, and he remained a Tiger supporter all the way, I have a soft spot for him despite the fact that he was a very conservative right winger outside of football, very much like a shock jock kind of personality. 3AW is the king of the shock jock airwaves here in Melbourne. His professional demise also may have been hastened by being blackmailed by his long term 'mistress', which was all over the media at the time, and Rex did not handle it well. My link On his fishing program, he was famous for kissing the fish and throwing them back in the water, as a gesture of respect and good conservation He was fun to listen to as a footy commentator, and he has quite a few disciples who now try to follow his 'gonzo' style of calling. Grand Final this year was a classic. Glad you got to hear it. Will it be played on TV at all over there?