Big Beat Steve

Seconded. Thumbs up!

As usual in these matters, you did a fine job, MG! This thread seems to have passed me by in September (in fact I was busy otherwise on 22 and out of town most of 23) but your post certainly deserves some forum reaction. And say what you want about those honkers, they added to the language, to the immediacy and to "connecting with the people" - and just in case any detractors step up: At least they screeched in tune and with the beat - which cannot be said of a certain brand of "avantgarde" saxists.

Bobby Jaspar died in early 1963. How "free" did he become in his playing towards the end of his life? These would have been VERY early examples of French free jazz. According to the discographies, Hot Time, Quiproque, Et Monk? and Fast Fats (sic!) were recorded by a Jef Gilson septet (includig Bobby Jaspar) in October, 1958, and Mode Azul was recorded "c. 1960" by another Jef Gilson group (without Jaspar). None of the two lineups include Byard Lancaster. So these tunes originated in pre-free jazz days. The first group has Roger Guerin, Fernand Verstraete (tp), Louis Fuentes (tB), Bobby Jaspar (ts), Walter Davis jr (p). Doug Watkins (b), Art Taylor (dr), Jef Gilson (arr, cond). Acc. to Bruyninckx, these sessions were orignally released under Art Taylor's name (on the Spirit Jazz label sometime in the 60s). The second one has Jean Liesse (tp), Jean-Louis Chautemps (tS), Jef Gilson (p), Guy de Fatto (B), Robert Barnet (dr), Georges Kirsch (cga). The credits given by Discogs seem to be very misleading (again ).

Does that unknown recording sound more like a club gig or like an after-hours jam session? I've searched high and low through the Swedish, French and German jazz mags I have from October, November and December 1959 and have found nothing whatsoever about any club dates by the Messengers beyond the major concerts named in the online Blakey discography. No advance publicity, no listings in concert/club tour schedules, in fact very, very sparse advance promo even for the concert hall events for this tour (except in the French mags which did a BIT more promotion) by a major group like this. And no club dates listed anywhere.

It's still a bit rough for the part of the tour that the purported Danish recordings come from: There also are: Nov. 24, 1959: Göteborg, Sweden Nov. 25, 1959: Copenhagen, Denmark As for the unknown recording, though I have not heard it, of course, I am a bit puzzled by Mikeweil's post above which I think initially brought up the question of Copenhagen as a possible venue. I am not sure if I got his post right. So it has been established that the subsequent tracks definitely are not 1959? Refering to this statement, the first 4 tracks of the cd on dime are what's known as "KB-Hallen", Copenhagen, Denmark, November 5, 1959. on this cd the above is listed as 11/18/59 dusseldorf. the rest of the cd is the mystery tape "11/19/59 dusseldorf". The first 4 tracks apparently incorrectly listed as 11/18/59-düsseldorf, then, but in fact listed in discographies as 11/05/59-copenhagen (which cannot be the correct date either) should be quite different aurally, shouldn't they, from the mystery tracks, accordng to what others have said here about the period when those tunes were likely to feature in their "book" and who sounds like whom (or not)? Just trying to figure this out ...

Well, as for "probably", I'd venture a guess that the people at Estrad knew their calendars when that tour was imminent. The same dates were named in the November, 1959, issue of Orkester Journalen. And there is not much likelihood that the Messengers toured the country twice within three weeks. As for the venue, if an anouncer is actually audible, the ACTUAL language he speaks ought to clarify things for obvious reasons (paging Daniel A, if you read this ... ) As for the list of recordings surviving from that period that ar elisted on jazzdiscography.com, the compiler did well to put question marks behind certain dates but got others quite wrong as well. Cf. this entry: "Olympia?, Paris, France (October 30, 1959) [Jazz Magazine 11/59 p.11] " I just checked that issue of Jazz Magazine that he gave as a source. Page 11, however, does NOT list the Jazz Messengers as appearing at the Olympia on 30 October but the MJQ at a yet undetermined venue on that date. The NEXT paragraph of that same notice says the Messengers will be at the Olympia on Saturday, 21 November. He seems to have misunderstood the contents of this French mag.

Well, in Copenhagen they would routinely announce their concerts in Danish, wouldn't they? But is the date given above correct? ESTRAD announced the Messengers tour in their Nov. 1959 issue, giving Nov. 25 as the Copenhagen date (see below).

Moonshine, according to the "Juganthology" cover.

Yo'funny yo'all! Look closely again - this is a BUY IT NOW offer at close to 40 grand.

If there is a CD version of the "Blows A Fuse" LP mentioned earlier then this would be the one I would go for.

You did well to start this thread.

You worded it pretty well (better than I could ever have) why I, for example, have always been sort of underwhelmed by the likes of Ace Cannon. Repetitive in a way quite different from what I called "formulaic" about the later Earl Bostic recordings. Maybe to put it in a very simplified way, Ace Cannon "played" a sax player whereas Earl Bostic WAS a sax player?

Somebody who's got a Dizzy Gillespie-like trumpet.

I must admit that's one I've tended to avoid. "Plays Sweet Tunes of the Roaring 20s" was more than enough for me (and only because you can't pass it up if you come across the three King 7-inchers at a steal price). Somehow "Bostic Rocks Hits of the Swing Age" does a bit more for me.

Reminds me of a 70s budget label LP credited to "Early Jimi Hendrix" - with Jimi buried in the backup bands of Joey Dee and Little Richard, plus (I think) a few early outtakes. I agree with how you summarized Bostic's (a bit unfair) standing with what you aptly refer to as the "jazz police". However, his earlier recordings should not be overlooked either for their jazz content. Spotlite SPJ152 ("That's Earl, Brother" - a smart album title ) has a nice (Jubilee?) session by his big band from late 1945 and also features him as a sideman with the Lionel Hampton and Rex Stewart bands. Some of his later albums are a bit formulaic but it's a pity he was given short shrift too often. It's (among many others) people like him I think of when I read about some of those "avantgarde" jazzmen about whom it is claimed they went BEYOND the more "conventional" players. IMHO they can only claim they went "beyond" their predecessors if they can prove they have as much chops and technical facilities as those earlier ones and in fact can outplay them if they wish and THEN go beyond because they have "exhausted" all that was there to play. If they can't, IMHO they just go SIDEWAYS onto a different limb in the tree of jazz (which is all very well too) but certainly not "beyond" in the sense of "ahead" or "further up".

Ha, this record certainly was not the one that fascinated me when I got into jazz at not quite 15 years of age. My mother had this and a couple of other Metronome EPs by the MJQ plus the Fontessa LP on Atlantic and when she noticed I was getting into jazz she tried to make me listen to these as "this being what jazz is all about" (like I metioned on the other thread, "Third Stream" was as far as she ever got into jazz). That sounded extremely odd to me and it took me a while to appreciate the MJQ, though their early recordings are less third-stream-ish but if you get into jazz via swing and oldtime jazz this DOES sound strange to you at that age. I eventually confiscated her EPs too (and still have them, including the above one ). Of the many recordings that fascinated me at that very early stage of getting into jazz I only can single out a few anymore, including the well-known version of Duke Ellington's "Take the A Train" (for the dynamics - which probably had something to do with the way I regularly came to listen to it; IIRC it was the signature tune of the "Fitch Bandwagon" that aired via AFN at that time). Others were Django Reinhardt's early Quintette du Hot Club de France recordings, and Eubie Blake's "Sounds of Africa" on a CBS piano compilation some friends of my parents had (I only got that record secondhand for myself many years later). As I expanded my record buying chronologically (from what I had heard on radio early on, modern jazz "at large" initially still was a bit weird to me), the first modern jazz record I ever bought obviously was some of the very first recordings in that vein - the Dizzy Gillespie "In The Beginning" twofer on Prerstige festuring his Guild and Musicraft recordings. This received countless spins and really had me fascinated as from the beginning it felt like a totally natural extension of the swing-era small combos to me - in marked contrast with the upheaval this caused at the time according to what I had read in Berendt's "Jazz Book" (which provided valuable guidance to me as a newbie and when re-reading that edition today I can still sense what I felt some 40 years ago).

Nice rundown of his (earlier) career, MG! That "Blows A Fuse" compilatin (on Charlie) that Jazztrain menions is a recommended introduction indeed, particularly for his more rousing tracks. I find some of his later King recordings a bit formulaic, though. They are always spot-on and it shows that he was a master of the alto sax but somehow to me they sound as if he had played all these tunes a zillion times, knew every nuance inside out, had been through all of the changes in every conceivable aspect so was able to play every tune forwards and backwards in his sleep. Still nice but I prefer to take them in smaller doses. It's amazing his Gotham recordings have not been reissued in a more compehensive way when Krazy Kat did all their Gotham LP reissues in the 80s. The cover of that CD mentioned by Mikeweil is one of those oddities where you really have to look hard and read the fine print to see what it is all about. Like with many contrivedly updated reissue covers of the 70s, the artwork is so totally out of keeping with any early 60s recordings and the way the sidemen all of a sudden received co-billing for their fame acquired later is rather misleading, not to mention the picture selections that aren't exactly 60s-ish, including the "techno" processing of the Bostic pic (BTW, are there ANY pre-Synanon artist pics of Joe Pass in existence at all?). A mention "feat. Richard Groove Holmes and Joe Pass" instead of the "VIvid Sound" blurb would have been sufficient IMHO for a respectful reissue ... (But thanks for mentioning that record, Mike, which made me pull out the LP again ... )

I read the entire interview online here within the Org forum thread - very convenient without going to the link. Leave it the way it is.

A very interesting read. Fills in a few gaps. Thanks!

I'd consider myself quite a Red Norvo fan (and have a huge part of his 40s and 50s recordings) so I may be a bit biased about recommendations but two recordings that I particularly like from this period are these: - Vibe-Rations (Liberty LJH 6012) and - The Forward Look (Reference Recordings RR-8, a privately taped session from New Year's Eve, 1957, that was first issued on LP in the early 80s)

Just to clarify this, the "Jazz Heritage" series I am referring to is the French/U.S. series on MCA from the 80s, and NOT the U.S Decca "simulated stereo" series from the 60s. The material reissued on that 60s U.S. series did exist in other forms too that the 80s MCA reissue could have taken over (and that would have been preserved for posterity if the worst had come to the worst, BTW ). Quite a bit of the contents of the V.A. LPs from the 80s MCA series were reissued in the 60s on German Brunswick in their "The Golden Swing Years" series and they were definitely mono. I also have a NM copy of the German version (same track order throughout) of the U.S. "stereo" LP by Earl Hines ("South Side Swing"). The German pressing definitely is mono and sounds fine. I've parted with the U.S. LP several years ago without actually listening to it (much less making an aural comparison though I had heard about the complaints about that fake stereo); I only kept a copy of the back sleeve for the liner notes by Stanley Dance which are different from the ones on the German reissue. It may depend on one's equipment but IMHO that 80s series ain't thad bad all in all. I've listened to some of those marked "Mono/Stereo" in the past 2 days and somehow my setup seems to "level out" whatever stereo there may have been left on some of the tracks ...

As it happens, the January, 1957 issue of JAZZ HOT had Miles on the cover (photo by J.P. Leloir too). With a pic evidently taken at the same occasion that the one above we're talking about was taken (look at that shirt! And the tie!). Coincidence? Only in the sense that this pic was fairly new and therefore "up to date" in January, 1957. One more indicator that the November, 1956 date must be correct. I have a complete run of Jazz Hot from 1945 to 1961 but though I really do not have the time to thumb through the 1949 (and later) issues now I am inclined to bet you a dime that I will NOT be able to find "your" pic in any of those mag up to that 1957 date (which - top put it mildly - would be surprising, given its quality, if that photo had existed before November, 1956).

Yurpeens have had their fingers on this pic ever since they bought this (well-done) anniversary special published by JAZZ HOT magazine in 1986. Incidentally, I am inclined to believe that the photo credit given by Jazz Hot that dates this pic at November, 1956 (backstage at Salle Pleyel after attending an MJQ concert as a visitor), is quite correct. Miles Davis DID look different in 1949, not least of all his hair which was a bit longer and visibly slickened/greased back.

I have a huge, huge lot of those MCA Jazz Heritage LP series (across the board of the artists covered) and can't complain. I've bought both French and U.S. pressings as I came across them and am satisfied with both. If you can find them secondhand they usually are cheap here. The programming of the individual LPs is a bit erratic (sessions split up, no chronology etc.) but if you have the full run of LPs on one particular artist you have the ground (of what that artist did for Decca) covered really well (and the Lunceford LPs in my opinion are better than just good) As for "simulated stereo", I don't know what makes you think the actual "Jazz Heritage" series were simulated stereo. Some of the French ones I have say "Mono/Stéreo" in the fine print on the label (no stereo claims on the cover) and the way they play on my equipment any (pseudo?) stereo separation is quite non-existent. So I can live with that quite well. I think you are confusing them with an older U.S. series from the 60s (record numbers starting with "DL"). I have unloaded most of the few I had as they are duplicated both by an even earlier LP series on German Brunswick (sometimes having an identical track sequence) and by the MCA Jazz Heritage series and have kept only those few that were not covered in the other seris (such as the Jan Savitt LP which is programmed excellently IMHO, BTW) and in these few cases I can live quite well with that stereo.

Thanks Marcel.. So it wasn't Ed Burke who recorded these performances (at least those from the 30s and 40s) but he salvaged (and saved) them from radio files.