Big Beat Steve

I did try to take your point (of Krupa coming from an earlier stylistic period that he never quite abandoned) into consideration and basically I agre wiht what you say. I can only give my own personal (subjective) judgment (that of a fan/collector/listener, not a critic) that to my ears and feel Krupa just weighs things down instead of lifting them up. Admittedly I associate "lifting the rhythm up" with more emphasis on the cymbals. And even if you do not focus on cymbals, the way Chick Webb, for example, propelled his bands along without resorting to cymbal-heavy drumming (that might be considered "progressive" in this sense) is a totally different class by itself. And comparing these two at least to MY ears exemplifies the difference between "driving along" and "clobbering". I think I see what you mean with Krupa's interjections/decorations but compared to Webb who "pushes straight ahead" Krupa often sounds oh so "stationary" (or "running in circles" if you will) to me. I am aware of the "progressive" narrative and am trying to keep this in mind to try to appreciate the music the way it was meant to be when it was made and for example, am bored rather quickly by a lot of latter-day old-time ("dixieland") jazz recordings that claim to bring back the mood of that era but rely on drummers who ride the cymbals like mad. But here we are talking about recordings from an era not that far away from Chicago jazz, and Dave Tough, for example, who came from Chicago too, DID develop into a somewhat lighter and flexible touch, didn't he? And I don't think this was to the detriment of his artistic personality. Now as for drummers rooted in Chicago jazz and STAYING there, for some reason (from what I have heard anyway) George Wettling, for example, just handles this in a less burdensome and more fitting manner (to MY taste, though probably colored by the fact that his swing-era recording settings were more traditional by swing-era standards). Just my 2c and just a subjective opinion, but just trying to explain why I often just find Krupa sort of "out of tune" with his surroundings.

I remember that corner, though only one particular visit when that corner was stacked with 78 rpm records in any significant number (mostly semi-jazz dance bands and loads of vocalist-led recordings, though, at first sight, and no alubms to speak of). but it may have been at that time that I discovered a box of grubby (but cleanable) 78 rpm ALBUMS sitting in a corner almost UNDER the stairs. No records inside anywhere - probably albums they received after the records had broken or with broken records inside. Some nice bebop-era albums in there I would have loved to buy for the artwork alone , but alas the albums were not for sale at that time.

Uh oh ... while I can enjoy these recordings for what they are, they are one of those examples where I really see why a lot of fans and experts of music from the 78 rpm era state that music originally issued on 78s ought to be listend to "the 78 rpm way" - one piece at a time, and not on an LP (or CD) in one go all the way (though they usually refer to early blues or country music when they say so). Those trio and quartet session do tend to wear me out if listened to in LP servings in one go - mainly for Gene Krupa's insistent clobbering (at almost anything above ballad tempo) that to me just drags things down (give me Jo Jones or Big Sid Catlett - for example - any time - and am I the only one who somehow feels Dave Tough brought more nuances to drumming in those BG small group settings than Krupa ever did?). Yet Teddy Wilson and Lionel Hampton usually save they day for me, but in the long run I still prefer the sextets

I saw several copies of this 78 rpm set pass through eBay (at prices beyond my reach or being outbid each time) in the mid-2000s. Not long after that I found a fairly clean "first-generation" (i.e. period issue) LP version (same cover but of course none of the pictures that make up the "album" of the 78rpm set and grabbed that one. I'd definitely have sprung for the item at Mole Jazz that Sidewinder mentioned.

Disregarding for a moment what this fellow wrote and just concentrating on what by his own admission just was his preferred style of jazz on a PERSONAL level, that just makes him the antipode to all those "jazz" fans out there (and if you are being honest you will admit that there are quite a few of them around these days, including on forums) to whom anything older in jazz than hard bop is just "old hat" in jazz and a sort of "trad jazz" anyway - not just swing, but anything originally recorded in the 78 rpm era. "Bird? Why bother, I have Jackie McLean. etc. etc., and besides, Bird did not record for Blue Note, so ... " (Yes I am exaggerating but I guess you get the attitude I am referring to ) A bit like building your house from the 4th floor on up with nothing underneath. Don't you think that such a house is fairly likely to crumble before long? As opposed to those who for whatever reason choose not to build their house beyond 3rd floor. They won't be able to take in quite interesting views they'd get if they were to venture higher up but at least they do live on a somewhat more solid foundation. Just a case of limitations of a different kind but not more limited than those who give short shrift to "earlier" styles of jazz, particularly if enjoyed (and played) long after their heyday. Anyway ... don't be that dismissive of those who make an effort to take in the whole era and environment of their favorite music. Even though misinformed nostalgia may cloud their judgment at times, something worthwhile may come of it if you really do your homework research-wise and LEARN. Many of those who have eventually done fine research on past times and events have developed along these lines. Which cannot be said of some of those who have approached the subject with an overly scholarly and formalistic attitude. As for George Frazier, if you disagree (understandably) at least you could have mentioned Frazier's involvement with Down Beat (which puts things on an ever so slightly different level). And if Richard Vacca's "Boston Jazz Chronicles" are anything to go by, Frazier DID champion jazz both in Boston and in his work for DB to quite some degree during those years. As for Frazier being a favorite writer, well, "favorite" is one thing, but does this necessarily equal "greatest writer"? Mileages (and tastes) vary (personal preferences too) but if this fellow is firmly in a swing groove (or call it swing rut if you want) then one might just argue why George T.Simon is not in that favorite league (but is this what you were getting at? ). BTW, as far as period writing on the swing era is concerned, would those rate higher in your esteem who would have wished Otis Ferguson had lived longer? The bottom line: Tastes differ, and what has come to be "accepted knowledge" too. Yet sometimes it can be very helpful (to better understand after all) to bypass that "accepted knowledge" and refer to past events as seen in the light of their times and THEN draw your own conclusions. +1 I probably can do without most of the BG stuff (though I am not in the anti-BG field but there just is SO MUCH by him already) but am pretty sure I would take the plunge for mp3s too if no other format ever materializes. Particularly the Basie/Young/Evans sessions and the jam sessions mentioned earlier in this thread.

I know you didn't. But i imagine others may have tended to think so.

+1 And his records for Bethlehem, Contract and Criterion are very nice too. Bud Powell-inspired - yes, but no clone. There was more to him.

Very nice, and no doubt that waitress has earned it, and you have every right to be proud of your credentials that you evidently have in the musicians' community. And in the end everyone benefits from the entire effort. Thumbs up.

I guess I have all of the later (80s) Savoy (vinyl) reissues from that era but still am looking forward to the detailed tracklist. I'm really wondering if they will target the gaps that there are in previous reissues instead of only covering the obvious throughout. For example, I own a Savoy 78 by Leo Parker "Chase'n The Lion" b/w "Senor Leo" that somehow did not figure on any of the reissues I've bought through the years. "New Look Swing" from that particular session also seems to have remained unreissued. And no doubt there are more by other artists. Will have to dig through Ruppli's discography one of these days again ...

Ohhh .... Talking about "young" Roy Haynes, so you did not include any of his tracks from his first leader session in Sweden in October, 1954? And none of his recordings made under his own name a couple of weeks later in Paris for Swing and CfD either? (The Swing 10-incher has been reissued not long ago in that much-touted Vogue box set) What a pity. The Metronome sessions, in particular, have reached not quite cult status but are highly regarded among the expatriate recordings from that era here. And after all it was these sessions that put him on the map as a "young" leader - years before he recorded as a leader again. So these recordings definitely do not deseve to stay under the radar in his leader discography, paticularly when it comes to acknowledging when his career as a leader actually began.

Mike, if you are interested in the Johnny Otis Savoy recordings then I assumme you have the two 2-LP sets "The Original Johnny Otis Show" Vol I and II. Vol. II was all over the place in the record shops here (you may remember ...) when it was released as a German pressing (distributed by RCA/Ariola) and was quite common for several years but I never saw Vol. I in the shops here and it took me several years to finally get hold of a copy (U.S. pressing). Those two sets have 64 tracks altogether but as they do not have commercials I assume the contents may not exactly match the box set.

I have them on another one from that 2-LP series ("2 Franks Please" - Savoy 2249). I pull it out every now and then when I am in kind of a "Basie-ish" listening mood without feeling like going straight to 50s Basie. Nuff said, right?

Glad to see I have all of those you showed/recommended. (And I agree ...) (BTW, do not overlook "The Changing Faceof Harlem Vol. 1"). In fact this series is one of those rare occurrences where I did buy a spare copy of some of these ("just in case" mine eventually do wear out) when I came across NM copies dirt cheap in a local secondhand record store.

Interesting connection. He must have been an "older man" (by rock standards) by the time he appeared on their second LP in 1969 (if my discography is correct).

Yes it did - I had a copy of it for a time in the mid-90s (I don't recall the exact reissue country, though). I bought the Black California Vol. 1 twofer secondhand fairly soon after it came out but did not manage to find Vol. 2 for several years (though I knew it existed). Then one day somewhere I chanced upon a CD release of it which i took as a s "secnd best option", but lo and behold, not long after that I finally found a copy of the 2-LP set at Ray's in London (not very cheap but worth it, particularly since IIRC the CD did not quite include all of the 2-LP contents as the playing time of 2 LPs exceeds the max. time of a CD). Of course I grabbed that one as vinyl of course was what I preferred. I was able to unload the CD quickly to a fellow collector (primarily for the Slim Gailard tracks on it, incidentally). I'd second most of the recommendations for the 2-LPs sets from the 80s mentioned above (including the R&B-ish "Roots of Rock'n'Roll" sets). Actually I have been pleased with all my buys of Savoy reissues (covering recordings from the 40s - including National masters - up to 1957 or so). Some special mentions, though, for items not singled out indivdiuall,y so far: From the Denon CD series, I find I often spin "Joltin' Joe" by Joe Roland and "Bright's Spot" by Ronnell Bright. And from the 2-LP sets, dont overlook "The Brothers and Other Mothers", Vol. 1 and 2!

Which would mean that there is even less Crescendo material that goes BEYOND the contents of the three "Count On The Coast" LPs on Phontastic. Pity ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2MaIyxtKb0Q

Seeing your reply only right now ... I was under the impression this was sort of standard fare to British jazz lovers everywhere because it has been out for a very long time. I bought the second volume (1950-1970) as a secondhand hardback (edition dating back to the 80s I think) at Mole Jazz sometime in 1997/98 or so. I did not get vol. 1 (1920-1950) until a couple of years ago as a paperback through Amazon (paperback edition, along with a CD box set to cover that time frame) when I found out (to my surprise) that the book is still in print (it must have been reprinted several times). If you have been asked to recommend just an "introductory" book on this subject matter then this might indeed fit the bill.

It's in the book. Page 182.

Speaking of venues and stages in your "neck of the woods", are you familiar with this book? https://www.amazon.com/Dance-Halls-Last-Calls-History/dp/1556229275/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1466785083&sr=8-1&keywords=dance+halls+and+last+calls The subtitle is a bit misleading, though. It is more about the dance halls than about the country music at large.

Glad to have been of service to you (but as it may have become apparent elsewhere on this forum, in addition to my interest in jazz from the 30s/40s I am very much a Western Swing fan too so part of this reissue strikes a chord with me in ways that may just not be that essential to others ...) As for your final question, as you certainly know the line between jazz territory bands and "hot string bands" (aka Western Swing bands) active throughout the South often was rather a blurred one in those years and styles overlapped to quite some degree. I think Allen Lowe will be able to anwer your question in a much more profound manner, but for a starter, the Port Arthur Jubileers (later known as the Jubileers) whose recordings took place at the Rice Hotel in Houston, TX , in April, 1940, might fit the bill. The Rice Hotel seems to have been used on several occasions for "field recordings" in that area. Their recordings are here (I do not have this particular CD, though): https://www.amazon.com/Port-Arthur-Jubileers-Associates/dp/B00J9V2STC?ie=UTF8&*Version*=1&*entries*=0 This BACM label operating from the UK is a "labor of love" affair run by a handful of diehard country music fans but the fidelity may vary (some of it due to the digital sources used, it seems).

So you don't like Ernie "Bubbles" Whitman aka "the stomach that walks like a man"??

From what I have seen in their catalog I'd agree with Jazzbo, though I have bought only few of them (I am not a pre-Swing era jazz completist and would not need to replace what I already have so I've only bought a few CDs so far to fill gaps). There seems to be so much on 20s jazz bands on the CD reissue market that you just can get carried away once you get seriously started in that field. However, one Jazz Oracle release I'd very, very, VERY much recommend urgently is BDW 8025: "Arkansas Shout - Swing/Western Swing/Blues Recorded in Hot Springs, Arkansas , 1937". Not only is this one of the few releases that goes beyond the usual time frame the label covers but it also reunites recordings by eight territory bands whose output is extremely hard to come by anywhere else (some of the tracks by the Original Yellow Jackets have been reissued on an LP on the Harrison label in the 70s but beyond that I don't know ...), let alone on original 78s (do you have any of them, Jeffcrom? ). So this release is not just a more systematic collation and better remastering of tracks reissued (in part) before but it really fills gaps in the collections of almost anybody interested in these under-the-radar territory bands. What some of these bands may lack in ultimate virtuosity they make up in enthusiasm. And it draws a fascinating picture of "crossover" styles between jazz, blues and (sometimes) hillbilly music as they happened in 1937. The booklet is a gem too - and it shows that research on the background of these recordings sometimes really amounts to archaeology (literally ...).

Same here. I use these mainly because of their availability. No problem, even after years. A few years ago I had issues with SONY CD-Rs (the ones that came in jewel cases with greenish inlay cards): Some just would not want to be recorded and burnt even though brand new and just removed from the box, though others burnt successfully. Unpredictable ...

I am not sure the type of "listening in a state that comes just before sleep" that Jim Sangrey and me try to describe fits into any of your categories a) to c) but I agree with your statement nonetheless. FWIW I am not sure this "subconscious listening" really is comparable to what you refer to as "peripheral listening" (which I'd call "background music", granting that some situations that you describe under b) also fall into this category) but your "peripheral listening" is indeed underrated in its importance. When the music that you listen subconsciously to already "strikes a chord" with you at this stage (even though you did not listen that closely) this opens the door to more focused listening (and therefore is the key to appreciating the music). And I'd consider dancing to the music, for example, as one way of "focused listening" too (OK, OK, this is not a criterion with "free improvisation" but no doubt that "free" music can be enjoyed on levels below academic scrutinizing too). As for your final statement ... (*Only rehabilitated in 'art' circles....most people world wide have been quite comfortable with the idea for centuries) ... yes - this cannot be stated often enough. Focused listening is fine when it is called for but you don't necessarily have to dissect a piece of music to death to really grasp it.