Big Beat Steve

As if there weren't any out there whose sexual behavior matched their sexual orientation 100% ... And for those anyway, Pete C's ( a bit tongue-in-cheek, so I take it ) clasification is spot-on.

Yes, great piece. And a nice (and certainly well-merited) stab at a certain type of "experts".

The song doesn't bother me but I got a few complaints about it. It's just fine to link to it but I see no need to post the lyrics here. If people want to explore it, they can do so on their own. Discovering this thread only now (very interesting views expresed there, BTW). But THIS (above)?? I am suprised, to put it mildly. How prude can you get? Does the pendulum indeed swing back THAT far? In TODAY's world? So, thanks, Moms, for linking at least to that site where the "Screening The Blues" book is discussed.

Reading the title of this thread, I figured you were asking about his activities in more recent times (he died in Sept., 2008, BTW, at age 84). But THIS? Never even heard of him?? So I'll have to agree with this: There has ALWAYS been a jazz world of substance outside the US of A and Arne D. was a major player in this field for several decades. Any "T"jazz fan at least ought to be "aware" of his existence. As for the link with legendary Jan Johansson, check the Johansson/Domnerus collaboration of 1959-61 on Dragon DRCD186. Also highly recommended are Arne's early recordings with Rolf Ericson (THAT name familiar, from his US stint at least? ) on Dragon DRCD 381, as well as his 1959-61 orchestra recordings on Dragon DRCD 196. His presence on the renowned Jazz Pa Stampen (Jazz At The Pawnshop) recordings from the 70s should be noted as well.

Who would worry at all about a discussion about the pros and cons of getting a set of music if he already has all or almost all of it in his own collection and is satisfied with the quality of the pressings he owns? Who would ...? I wouldn't. It would be a discussion off my radar because I would just not be concerned. But others would, and they seem to prefer either to worry or to rant to death about it. What for? Ulcers? Beats me ... BTW, my reasoning about getting this set was easy: I already had a fair share of it too. But the price of the set in my currency is that of about 3 or 4 (or maybe 5) normally priced CD's worth of music. And there is much more than that in there that I did not have yet and would not have minded getting. And among some of those I already had (on vinyl), in the worst of the worst cases and at THAT price per CD the CDs from that box set could always come in handy for my car audio system. So I sprung for it. It was and is worth it to me. And that counts. Nothing else.

If anybody were to buy that box only for a scant few live recordings contained on maybe 3, 4 or 5 of those CDs then - then yes, you'd be unconditionally correct. But at something like $1.30 per CD, who or what is anybody interested in a halfway substantial share of that music supposed to sneer at? That price is almost like giving the music away free (at least if you figure in the price of a decent blank and the time and therefore money saved on downloading, copying, CD-R'ing etc.) - just like you have propagated it sooooo often. In short, at that kind of money one can just as well dump those items one is dissatisfied with and enjoy the rest. Sorry but almost every other approach sounds and reads like a mixture of sour grapes and fundamental nitpicking ("if I cannot enjoy it because my self-held criteria prevent me from doing so then I will go out of my way to make sure nobody else will enjoy it or at least I will see to it that he feels oh so guilty about it ....") For that matter, as long as legit companies get away with putting shoddy product out at FULL price (and that still DOES happen, doesn't it?) then the field for improvement is wide open and P.D. companies are not the only culprits who need to clean up their act. The field is wide open for lots of action ...

Most of them are not my cup of tea at all but by any yardstick this is ONE HELL of a jazz find. Congrats! Enjoy! What I snapped up at a local record store mass clearout sale last Friday at 1 euro ($1.20) each definitely pales by comparison (some 50s Dixieland jazz originals, a couple of swing and modern jazz 10-inchers including Miles, Woody, Bix, Benny, reissue of 50s Sammy Price Paris recordings, a bit of Brubeck and a few more).

I wouldn't disagree, but STILL it likely is not everybody's cup of tea in a jazz and hardcore blues setting.

JETman,I wasn't referring specifically to you and YOUR specific tastes but ... let's say ... I guess it is fair to assume that your reaction is not an isolated case. Quite understandable, particularly in the case of those jazz collectors who mainly focus on hard bop and whatever came AFTERWARDS. And this is not a rare breed of jazz fans, I guess. Even some swing fans (who appreciate the HRS box set - so do I, BTW ) won't automatically be attracted to doo wop or jazzed-up movie scores. Nothing wrong with that, basically, but of course something to be reckoned with if a box set focusing on the complete output of one specific (and eclectic) label is assembled. OTOH, as for making assumptions, all I was getting at was that if we took whatever you (or anybody else) happened to really love in late 50s or more recent "contemporary" jazz and played it to a diehard doo-wop fan then his reaction would be ... see above ... Hey, in fact I know some who might swoon along with the Orioles but will just as likely cringe at the early to mid-40s INSTRUMENTAL transitional swing/early bebop music I love. "Too many notes", "too frenzied", you get it, I guess ... See what I mean? Tastes do differ. As for that comedy album, take it in stride and dismiss it as an oddball item. Better than buying a monster box set of the complete works of the CHESS label, only to find out you are saddled with hours of Moms Mabley and Pigmeat Markham when you were expecting MUSIC!

Well, I liked the Barney Kessel material (El Tigre) and some other material. I suppose it is true there is a fair bit of material that would never have been reissued except in the context of a complete set. One man's meat is another man's poison. You may rightly assume that many of the fanatic lovers of doo-wop music (a musical genre where "a vocal group called the Orioles" were one of the trailblazers and seminal early groups - even though the album reissued here admittedly was not their most essential output) will find most of your own preferred musical fare of post-late 50s modern jazz just a load of dissonant, disjointed, disorganized noise. And from their very own vantage point they cannot be proven all wrong. Tastes do differ .... That's life ...

I've a feeling that this is one area where the discussion can quickly get over-academicised (no idea if this word exists but you get the idea, right? ) to death. Not that this angle would be without interest but somehow I fear there will be too much that will be projected into it from today's point of view to prove a point valid to TODAY'S "scholars" but not necessarily relevant to those who were around back then. I'd hate to see more "Swing Shifts" being written on that subject by more Sherrie Tuckers.

Once we get beyond the concept in the abstract, just what do you think the contours of a class-based look at jazz would be? Do you see class distinctions, apart from race, as central to the trajectory of jazz history? Jazz as a working man's music (pre-WWII jazz anyway) with Charlie Barnet and John Hammond et al. being the odd men out?

I guess this is what I tried to hint at when I spoke of oversimplifications. His perception may parallel the fact that many white kids probably picked those parts of Black Culture that they found appealing and that suited their requirements but did not care as much about the overall picture (where, in a way, you can't have one - desirable - thing without having to accept the other - less desirable - too).

A very interesting piece, though I would not claim I've fully grasped all of it upon a first reading. I guess I will print it out for more focused reading later on. Just a few remarks - form an outsider (Non-American) looking in, in a way .. : Could it not be that Norman Mailer's statement has to be seen in the context of its times? Isn't there some truth to the statement that white "hipsters" (even after the 1940s when they usually were no longer called hipsters) indeed tried to escape the confines of relatively rigid and anarrow-minded moral corset of White America of those times and felt they found more freedom in what they perceived to be the way of life of Black America, regardless of whether this was an oversimplification or not? Wow ... lumping Roy Head, AL Haig, Frank Hutchison, Dave Schildkraut, Harmonica Frank Floyd and Janis Joplin (and all the others) together in one go sure is an eclectic array of musicians. I see and understand what you are getting at but can only wish everybody who reads the final version of this in your liner notes will be able to follow you.

Wouldn't know about the film but some EXTREMELY early photos of Kenny Burrell can be found in the BEFORE MOTOWN book by Gallert/Bjorn about the pre-1960 jazz and R&B history of Detroit (great book in every other respect too, BTW)

It looks like this box set reissues everything that was on Charlie Parker Records at one time, regardless or whether it was an original release or a REISSUE (as with some other Tampa releases that are included in this box set). The Paich/Pepper album that originally was on Tampa TP28 was also released on CP PLP 829 (see photos above), according to the Bryuninckx discography.

There are more links to the contents of the new 30-CD box: AJ Records also reissued LPs from the TAMPA label. Archives of Jazz Vol. 6 (AJ-507) was the Tampa (TP-11) sampler "Jazz Americana" (now on CD No. 12).

AFAIK Egmont was a budget label that did the U.K. pressings of some of the Charlie Parker Records releases (through a licensing deal or whatever). I have both the Cecil Payne LP and AJS-8 (Lester Young Just you Just Me, see Vol. 16 of the CP box). The back covers of both LPs only refer to the contents of the respective records and to CP Records but I do seem to remember that other Egmont LPs coverd into other fields (non-jazz) and listed their other releases available on their back covers - like other U.K. budget labels such as Fidelio. BTW, I find that Discogs site (which for some reason is linked rather often here) utterly disturbing. Clearly something thrown together haphazardly from various internet souces without any checking for representativeness (let alone completeness) or plausibility (such as in the case of this Egmont link which lists a totally unrelated recent release). Pretty useless, IMO, this site - except as a sort of memory aid to confirm that there IS something along the lines you vaguely remebered.

Not so sure about that event in "The Screamers" being 100% fiction. Big Jay McNeely was one sax honker, for example, who is reported to have walked his band right out in the street (to the frenzy of the audience). Not to mention entire bands that did this sort of parading (such as Lionel Hampton's). It may have been fiction as far as Lynn Hope is concerned, though. Judging by his two most commonly accessible reissue albums - "Morocco" on Jonas Bernholm's Saxophonograph label and the Lynn Hope album reissue of Aladdin LP 707 on French Pathé Marconi - he was a sort of Earl Bostic on the tenor sax which makes him an unlikely candidate for such antics. OTOH the liner notes of the Saxophonograph LP mention his showmanship and his habit of doing the "bar walk". So maybe a case of "artistic liberties" with the way events and persons are combined in that tale?

I'm about to finish reading it. The "introduction" that sets the scene is a bit long-winding and the details on the Ferguson brothers and their "numbers game" shtick, etc. take a while for the reader to grasp their importance to the overall picture but once you're through that you really are into it. Overall it's very interesting and gives you a highly insightful picture of the way things were. Best read in conjunction with books like "Honkers & Shouters" or "Record Makers & Breakers" (so you get an even better picture of Don Robey, for example). And THANK GOODNESS it is not overly "scholarly".

FWIW, the (brief) liner notes on the back cover of Roost LP 2224 (which is made up of the 8 1947 or 1949 recordings plus 4 from 1953 as "fillers") alluding to the Bud/Curley/Max trio state: "Recorded in 1950 with a sound fresher than today's ..." So they did not attempt to "backdate" the KEY session on that record? Of course this does not PROVE anything and notoriously incorrect details on liner notes from that era are common, but I wonder what specifically made Roost indicate that date instead of maybe 1947 (which would have allowed them to pull the publicity stunt of indicating how advanced this trio was as early as 1947)?

I stand corrected, and just to make this clear: Of course I would not have wanted to judge on the overall contents of that book as I have not yet read it. It just is that I have become a bit wary of those who work too much of their own agenda into the way they write about history. I've been through a couple such cases - though they were not linked to "race" issues - and did not find the results all that entertaining to read, especially since the subject on hand would have been interesting if it had not been for these "agendas". As for this afram/euram business, I still don't get it. Nobody would have expected any author to use terms like "colored" or "sepia" (or more inappropriate ones) in a book written TODAY, but in a historical context, what is so utterly bad about just talking about "black" and "white" (wherever that mattered at all) as a simple statement of fact? As pointed out by someone else before, if you use key terms in discussing events that took place at a time when the key terms in question had not been in use yet (particularly if these terms are far from neutral descriptors), you risk giving a slant to the discussion that clouds matters more than it clarifies.

Actually the release of this book had (and still has) got me close to the point of breaking my habits and getting a Kindle after all (OK, the Teddy Weatherford bio had begun to steer me in that direction ever so slightly too) but after reading the discussions of P.P.'s writing style and political agenda, I am sort of unsure. I guess I am one of those who resent having all sorts of political agendas relatively extraneous (to me, anyway) to the subject matter on hand being permanently forced onto me and shoved down my throat while reading. I know I came to resent this as I read that "Swing Shift" book about female swing orchestras (Yes I know, no doubt Mr Pullman is a much better writer but still ... that personal political agenda thing ...) So I know how I will react to "afram", "euram", etc. It is all very well and appropriate not to use once-common denigrating terms to the extent they used to be but you really can overdo it ... and from what I read here (seeing how many seem to find it hard to gloss over those outbursts of the personal battle Mr Pullman seems to be fighting) he really seems to be overdoing it. All the more so because he is one in a by-now long row of publishers and do-gooders who seem to be intent on rewriting history by instilling present-day P.C. instead of allowing the reader to look at things the way they were AT THE TIME. Adding explanatory notes has never done any harm and could have straightened things out for Mr Pullman too but if he had to go all they way, well ... It's a bit like what is happening even over here with various books published decades ago and universally considered totally innocent, yet being rewritten and "tidied up" NOW for current printings in an attempt to remove "offensive" terms. No way anybody is to be allowed to see and reflect on historical events in the context of their times. As if you can rewrite history ... He.., some even want to see "Uncle Tom's Cabin" banished from the bookshelves altogether!

No, not cheap ... but if you calculate it per CD this amounts to about 15 or 16 euros per CD and this is not exactly uncommon (cf. Bear Family). But maybe not the worst deal, considering that this set was rumoured to be out of print. Glad you will be able to get an intact set now, and hope you will enjoy it.

Can it really be any more gruesome than those "In Disco Order" series?? For all I remember and have listened to this series by and large had a pretty dull and muffled sound. I find it of interest only if it can be picked up dirt cheap to fill specific gaps or when it covers to orchestras that have not been reissued comprehensively elsewhere. I happen to have a few of these Herman "In Disco Order" LPs and just am giving Vol. 15 (which incidentally covers the entire July 31, 1942 to March 23, 1944 period, i.e. not much there, thanks for the ban!) a spin now. The sound on this one is not as muffled as on others from that series (i.e. other orchestras) but nothing spectacular to write home about either IMO. OTOH, the "Turning Point" LP was around in various guises. I have it as a U.K. Coral pressing (Coral CP2) which is strictly mono and sounds very much OK to me. As for the "Turning Point" LP not giving the discographically complete picture - O.K., and no doubt one man's poison is another man's meat, but are we really talking about trying to get all those saccharine vocals too? Fer Urbina, have you checked the concurrent Woody Hermann V-Disc reissues on the Hep label too? The first recordings date from Aug./Sept. 1944.