Big Beat Steve

CrocoJAZZ, you mean ... I remember coming across a bunch of original Ahmad Jamal Jazz LPs in a secondhand shop sometime in the 90s but passed them up as the vinyl was really beat up. But I did pick up Shorty Rogers' "Chances Are It Swings", Herb Pomeroy's "Band In Boston", Kenny Dorham's "Jazz Contemporary" (Time) and The International Youth Band at Newport 1958 that all clearly came from the same original owner. But on these last ones the vinyl was in far better shape and plays quite nicely. So again ... the Jamals must have been pressed into service a bit more at parties (or wherever ...).

Not sure what you mean by that. The common practice these days seems to be to push up the sound level and reduce the dynamics. In quite a few "modern" recordings and remasterings there are hardly any dynamics left... My mistake, certainly. Poor choice of words. What I meant to say was indeed that the sound level is pushed so everything comes across louder. "Dynamic (sounds)" in the sense of "sounds that blast you away", if you know what I mean ...

Remembering that among all the MOR, VERY EASY-listening stuff churned out on AFN FM radio by such "name bands" as Percy Faith, Mantovani, Hugo Winterhalter, Bert Kaempfert, etc. there was bound to be an Ahmad Jamal item coming up relatively frequently amidst all those MOR pop band sounds, I am not at all surprised to see that his LPs apparently were abused so often by "non-collecting" music consumers of the day who spun the records at their parties.

Seems very much like this is the key question indeed. At least as long as the "majors" (or "officials" or however you care to call them) are less likely than ever to get their act together and really, really do something conscientious (!!) for the collector. Being used to what inevitably is common practice in the case of reissues of 78rpm releases, though, this needle drop business doesn't bother me all that much most of the times. After all, there are needle drops and there are needle drops. Not to mention the practice (from which "official" reissues do not seem to be immune either) of altering and pushing up the sound level and dynamics of the recordings to suit "modern-day" listening habits (which they say are geared to listening to "louder" music, it seems??). Sometimes some reissuer who clearly can't be bothered with doing any remastering at all might almost be the lesser evil. OTOH, that FS practice of combining one item that has also been reissued before (by FS, particularly on vinyl) with one that is all new in its reissue form is very galling indeed. A punishment to those who've bought FS in the past. Being a NON-completist (at least in most of THIS field of jazz) helps, though ...

Care to share a link to that thread anyway?

I rarely use the View New Content function but rather visit my favorite forums fairly regularly. Those I really very rarely look at are the following, in particular: Album of the Week (just off my radar somehow) Blindfold Test (I won't particpate anyway) Classical Discussion (am not really into classics) Live Shows & Festivals (live events in the US are a bit far for me to attend) Musicians' Forum (am not a musician so cann ot contribut - or realte to - musicians' "shop talk") Hammond Zone (not interested in organs, in general)

The stuff on the Swingtime label? I have some of that but they are relatively early ones. Which sessions/recording periods are you specifically thinking of?

As if there weren't any out there whose sexual behavior matched their sexual orientation 100% ... And for those anyway, Pete C's ( a bit tongue-in-cheek, so I take it ) clasification is spot-on.

Yes, great piece. And a nice (and certainly well-merited) stab at a certain type of "experts".

The song doesn't bother me but I got a few complaints about it. It's just fine to link to it but I see no need to post the lyrics here. If people want to explore it, they can do so on their own. Discovering this thread only now (very interesting views expresed there, BTW). But THIS (above)?? I am suprised, to put it mildly. How prude can you get? Does the pendulum indeed swing back THAT far? In TODAY's world? So, thanks, Moms, for linking at least to that site where the "Screening The Blues" book is discussed.

Reading the title of this thread, I figured you were asking about his activities in more recent times (he died in Sept., 2008, BTW, at age 84). But THIS? Never even heard of him?? So I'll have to agree with this: There has ALWAYS been a jazz world of substance outside the US of A and Arne D. was a major player in this field for several decades. Any "T"jazz fan at least ought to be "aware" of his existence. As for the link with legendary Jan Johansson, check the Johansson/Domnerus collaboration of 1959-61 on Dragon DRCD186. Also highly recommended are Arne's early recordings with Rolf Ericson (THAT name familiar, from his US stint at least? ) on Dragon DRCD 381, as well as his 1959-61 orchestra recordings on Dragon DRCD 196. His presence on the renowned Jazz Pa Stampen (Jazz At The Pawnshop) recordings from the 70s should be noted as well.

Who would worry at all about a discussion about the pros and cons of getting a set of music if he already has all or almost all of it in his own collection and is satisfied with the quality of the pressings he owns? Who would ...? I wouldn't. It would be a discussion off my radar because I would just not be concerned. But others would, and they seem to prefer either to worry or to rant to death about it. What for? Ulcers? Beats me ... BTW, my reasoning about getting this set was easy: I already had a fair share of it too. But the price of the set in my currency is that of about 3 or 4 (or maybe 5) normally priced CD's worth of music. And there is much more than that in there that I did not have yet and would not have minded getting. And among some of those I already had (on vinyl), in the worst of the worst cases and at THAT price per CD the CDs from that box set could always come in handy for my car audio system. So I sprung for it. It was and is worth it to me. And that counts. Nothing else.

If anybody were to buy that box only for a scant few live recordings contained on maybe 3, 4 or 5 of those CDs then - then yes, you'd be unconditionally correct. But at something like $1.30 per CD, who or what is anybody interested in a halfway substantial share of that music supposed to sneer at? That price is almost like giving the music away free (at least if you figure in the price of a decent blank and the time and therefore money saved on downloading, copying, CD-R'ing etc.) - just like you have propagated it sooooo often. In short, at that kind of money one can just as well dump those items one is dissatisfied with and enjoy the rest. Sorry but almost every other approach sounds and reads like a mixture of sour grapes and fundamental nitpicking ("if I cannot enjoy it because my self-held criteria prevent me from doing so then I will go out of my way to make sure nobody else will enjoy it or at least I will see to it that he feels oh so guilty about it ....") For that matter, as long as legit companies get away with putting shoddy product out at FULL price (and that still DOES happen, doesn't it?) then the field for improvement is wide open and P.D. companies are not the only culprits who need to clean up their act. The field is wide open for lots of action ...

Most of them are not my cup of tea at all but by any yardstick this is ONE HELL of a jazz find. Congrats! Enjoy! What I snapped up at a local record store mass clearout sale last Friday at 1 euro ($1.20) each definitely pales by comparison (some 50s Dixieland jazz originals, a couple of swing and modern jazz 10-inchers including Miles, Woody, Bix, Benny, reissue of 50s Sammy Price Paris recordings, a bit of Brubeck and a few more).

I wouldn't disagree, but STILL it likely is not everybody's cup of tea in a jazz and hardcore blues setting.

JETman,I wasn't referring specifically to you and YOUR specific tastes but ... let's say ... I guess it is fair to assume that your reaction is not an isolated case. Quite understandable, particularly in the case of those jazz collectors who mainly focus on hard bop and whatever came AFTERWARDS. And this is not a rare breed of jazz fans, I guess. Even some swing fans (who appreciate the HRS box set - so do I, BTW ) won't automatically be attracted to doo wop or jazzed-up movie scores. Nothing wrong with that, basically, but of course something to be reckoned with if a box set focusing on the complete output of one specific (and eclectic) label is assembled. OTOH, as for making assumptions, all I was getting at was that if we took whatever you (or anybody else) happened to really love in late 50s or more recent "contemporary" jazz and played it to a diehard doo-wop fan then his reaction would be ... see above ... Hey, in fact I know some who might swoon along with the Orioles but will just as likely cringe at the early to mid-40s INSTRUMENTAL transitional swing/early bebop music I love. "Too many notes", "too frenzied", you get it, I guess ... See what I mean? Tastes do differ. As for that comedy album, take it in stride and dismiss it as an oddball item. Better than buying a monster box set of the complete works of the CHESS label, only to find out you are saddled with hours of Moms Mabley and Pigmeat Markham when you were expecting MUSIC!

Well, I liked the Barney Kessel material (El Tigre) and some other material. I suppose it is true there is a fair bit of material that would never have been reissued except in the context of a complete set. One man's meat is another man's poison. You may rightly assume that many of the fanatic lovers of doo-wop music (a musical genre where "a vocal group called the Orioles" were one of the trailblazers and seminal early groups - even though the album reissued here admittedly was not their most essential output) will find most of your own preferred musical fare of post-late 50s modern jazz just a load of dissonant, disjointed, disorganized noise. And from their very own vantage point they cannot be proven all wrong. Tastes do differ .... That's life ...

I've a feeling that this is one area where the discussion can quickly get over-academicised (no idea if this word exists but you get the idea, right? ) to death. Not that this angle would be without interest but somehow I fear there will be too much that will be projected into it from today's point of view to prove a point valid to TODAY'S "scholars" but not necessarily relevant to those who were around back then. I'd hate to see more "Swing Shifts" being written on that subject by more Sherrie Tuckers.

Once we get beyond the concept in the abstract, just what do you think the contours of a class-based look at jazz would be? Do you see class distinctions, apart from race, as central to the trajectory of jazz history? Jazz as a working man's music (pre-WWII jazz anyway) with Charlie Barnet and John Hammond et al. being the odd men out?

I guess this is what I tried to hint at when I spoke of oversimplifications. His perception may parallel the fact that many white kids probably picked those parts of Black Culture that they found appealing and that suited their requirements but did not care as much about the overall picture (where, in a way, you can't have one - desirable - thing without having to accept the other - less desirable - too).

A very interesting piece, though I would not claim I've fully grasped all of it upon a first reading. I guess I will print it out for more focused reading later on. Just a few remarks - form an outsider (Non-American) looking in, in a way .. : Could it not be that Norman Mailer's statement has to be seen in the context of its times? Isn't there some truth to the statement that white "hipsters" (even after the 1940s when they usually were no longer called hipsters) indeed tried to escape the confines of relatively rigid and anarrow-minded moral corset of White America of those times and felt they found more freedom in what they perceived to be the way of life of Black America, regardless of whether this was an oversimplification or not? Wow ... lumping Roy Head, AL Haig, Frank Hutchison, Dave Schildkraut, Harmonica Frank Floyd and Janis Joplin (and all the others) together in one go sure is an eclectic array of musicians. I see and understand what you are getting at but can only wish everybody who reads the final version of this in your liner notes will be able to follow you.

Wouldn't know about the film but some EXTREMELY early photos of Kenny Burrell can be found in the BEFORE MOTOWN book by Gallert/Bjorn about the pre-1960 jazz and R&B history of Detroit (great book in every other respect too, BTW)

It looks like this box set reissues everything that was on Charlie Parker Records at one time, regardless or whether it was an original release or a REISSUE (as with some other Tampa releases that are included in this box set). The Paich/Pepper album that originally was on Tampa TP28 was also released on CP PLP 829 (see photos above), according to the Bryuninckx discography.

There are more links to the contents of the new 30-CD box: AJ Records also reissued LPs from the TAMPA label. Archives of Jazz Vol. 6 (AJ-507) was the Tampa (TP-11) sampler "Jazz Americana" (now on CD No. 12).

AFAIK Egmont was a budget label that did the U.K. pressings of some of the Charlie Parker Records releases (through a licensing deal or whatever). I have both the Cecil Payne LP and AJS-8 (Lester Young Just you Just Me, see Vol. 16 of the CP box). The back covers of both LPs only refer to the contents of the respective records and to CP Records but I do seem to remember that other Egmont LPs coverd into other fields (non-jazz) and listed their other releases available on their back covers - like other U.K. budget labels such as Fidelio. BTW, I find that Discogs site (which for some reason is linked rather often here) utterly disturbing. Clearly something thrown together haphazardly from various internet souces without any checking for representativeness (let alone completeness) or plausibility (such as in the case of this Egmont link which lists a totally unrelated recent release). Pretty useless, IMO, this site - except as a sort of memory aid to confirm that there IS something along the lines you vaguely remebered.