Big Beat Steve

True, good sound and great recordings. But very annoying track compilation. A bit here, a bit there, but nothing even halfway complete (neither live Storyville nor studio sessions). Bought my copy in my relatively early collecting days (29 years ago) to get a taste - which I did (and liked it), but whenever I tried to complete those sessions, this turned out to be impossible without running into just that annoying amount of overlaps that would have made it less appealing to buy those other vinyls (because it would have taken several LPs - if they could be found - to round up EVERYTHING on that LP and phase it out for good).

I'm with Brownie here. Will have to get used to it, but am unimpressed. Too busy, too gimmicky (those miniature avatars on the overview page do not serve any useful purpose IMO).

Never heard it called "middle jazz". I always knew it as "mainstream". Same thing. Synonymous. I just wanted to use a term that specifically coincided with the period when this music was recorded. Was in use in the UK too IIRC. Check out period copies of "Jazz Monthly" featuring Albert McCarthy's writings.

You want to talk about which Vanguards exactly? About those that the label became famous for among fans, i.e. those done in the 50s, including releases by Mel Powell, Vic Dickenson, Ruby Braff, Sir Charles Thompson, Urbie Green, and others? In short, "middle jazz". Those shown in the initial posts above seem to point into another direction and era.

There was talk of a TEDDY WEATHERFORD biography here some time ago that is only available in e-book form and was said to be pretty good. Don't know anything about e-reader formats and don't know about your musician/bio preferences but there you are anyway ...

This is getting ridiculous. Posts had disappeared en masse, and now they have been restored. Fine ... BUT - in the meantime the discussion (since that cutoff date before which those older posts had disappeared) has gone on and did yield some fruitful thoughts IMO, including on this topic. Now these are all gone. How annoying is THIS??? Why would it not have been possible to MERGE these threads, like it had been done elsewhere in the past? You know these blacklisting things are a borderline subject and seem to be colored by criteria that are far from historically objective. Who would you want to blacklist just by the name of the label alone? IMO quite a few of these "Andorran" releases have received undue fire. Yes they take FULL advantage of the European P.D. rules (a rule is a rule) but they also release a LOT of stuff that NOBODY but REALLY NOBODY among the corporate bigwigs (that pretend they hold the licenses but in fact only lock those licenses away and therefore prevent access to any of it) could EVER have been bothered to even look at for a second. Do you ACTUALLY think anybody over there at Fresh Sound will get rich and reap huuuuge rewards by releasing stuff like "Jazz From The Westchester Workshop"? Or the REALLY obscure stuff held now by majors such as the Don Bagley item on Decca (now MCA etc...)? Would those who hold the Decca catalog now EVER do a COMPREHENSIVE reissue program of their own that went far enough to include (semi-)obscure artists such as Bagley? Rehashing the umpteenth big star name reissues is no accomplishment. And why does anyone DARE to say that Fresh Sound is bad PER SE (as is often done here) though excellent releases such as the NOCTURNE label box set (another subject that NOBODY elsehwere has ever bothered tackling seriously) have been openly endorsed by the originators of the label? Whereas, OTOH, forumists around here drool openly and excessively about labels such as Proper that have nice compilations and nice prices but clearly rehash previous (and not so old) reissues. I've given this example before but will repeat it: Just compare their Accordion Jazz box set with the contents of the Accordion Jazz box set by Fremeaux Associés (the first ones around with that really old stuff) plus the fact that the Mat Mathews etc. stuff included in that Proper box set was reissued not long ago too. And now tell me - do you REALLY think that all those overlaps of the contents are pure coincidence? There would have been a LOT more worthwhile P.D. accordion jazz that could have been reissued by Proper with ZERO overlap with the Fremeaux set and THIS is what would have served the customer (but of course that would have meant a LOT more research and remastering as it would have boiled down to FIRST TIME EVER reissues in some cases). Sorry to say but it seems to me that whole debate is pretty much skewed around here, and Anglo-Saxon (U.S. in particular) forumists in particular seem to argue along the lines of "Anglosaxon P.D. label = good" and "Continental European P.D. label = bad). Neither fair nor appropriate, and lacking seriously in differentiated thinking. Whereas the basic problem IMHO is: Corporates, clean up your act and keep stuff in print, for jeez sake! Then there won't be no P.D. labels. (Yes, I am deliberately disregarding sales figures. It is a niche product for ANYBODY, particularly since I doubt seriously the corporate ones keep paying their artists of decades ago once the P.D. rule has come to be applicable due to the age of the recordings. (Or would the current holders of the Savoy catalog NOW make good for Lubinsky's royalty wrongdoings? )

I did. No regrets. Sound is good indeed. As for the music, my subjective and admittedly superficial (for the time being) impression is that Zoot's playing (and his interplay with Hans Koller) in a way is more adventurous than in many of his collaborations with Al Cohn, for example, of that period. Don't know which way of playing I'd like better; it is probably a matter of momentary preference with me.

Care to elaborate? @Sonnymax: You're most welcome.

Crap singer, crap comedian. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freddie_Starr MG I prefer to remember him as the singer of Merseybeat group Freddie Starr & The Midnighters. Nice for what that group was as part of that particular music scene (most everything that runs under "Merseybeat" has cult status among diehard collectors), nice for fans of the music but irrelevant to others who are musically and/or geographically unconcerned (a bit like mid-60s US Garage Punk or early 60s French "ye-ye" was/is irrelevant to those who are NOT fans/collectors of that particular genre). As for his later doings ... phew ...

Another one where one probably had no idea he was still around ... RIP Will play this ... http://www.discogs.com/Jack-Di%C3%A9val-Jazz-Aux-Champs-Elys%C3%A9es/release/738619 and, for contrast, this ... in remembrance

"Roâ übü", then? Oh my ...

Certainly Pugh and Hugh are pronounced pyoo and hyoo on this side of the Atlantic (Pugh is a Welsh name, by the way) but we'll wait till the Americans wake up to confirm it's the same there. You know what I mean - seeing that Duke is dyook here, but dook over there. Can't imagine he's called Jim Pooh, mind you. Speaking of which and carrying this one step further, how would "King Ubu" be pronounced, then? "King Oo-boo(h)" or "King "Yewboo"? (Nah, just kidding ... )

That's exactly what I meant, and maybe we've been misunderstanding each other. As you confirm, "Pugh" therefore is pronounced "pyoo", just like Brew Moore is NOT pronunoced "Bryoo" Moore. Hence my question. Because the key aspect to me seemed to be that the (pronounced or not pronounced) phonetic "y" is part of the pronunication of the entire WORD. See what I mean, King Ubu? I wasn't making fun at all, just trying to elucidate this: You pronounce "Pugh" like "pyoo" and NOT like "pooh", just like you pronounce "Brew" like "Broo" and NOT like "Bryoo". Therefore "Brew" (or "Fru") IMO wasn't the ideal analogy with "Pugh". And the smilie I met with my example of "pew" sounding like "Pugh" was just because Jim Pewter (google him if you like ...) was a character in music too but FAR removed from jazz.

Yes Really? Everywhere in the anglo-saxon world? Those "Pughs" I've "heard" by their names sounded more like "Pews" or "Hughs", really ... But not like Winnie the Pooh ...

Like in "Pew", I'd say. i.e. Like in "Jim PEWter" Or like "Hugh", if you want to stick closer to the spelling, for convenience's sake.

@Sonnymax: Interesting and eclectic list: Re- Part 2, Jazz in Weimar (= "Jazz in pre-1933 Germany"): No. 1: The correct spelling is Saxophone Orchestra DOBBRI (artist's name for bandleader Otto Dobrindt) No. 2: This looks like a misspelling of the name of bandleader BELA DAJOS (actually his artist's name was DAJOS BELA but sometimes the name was turned around on the label and Crumb may have been unaware of which is which). This bandleader made hundreds (posibly thousands) of recordings in the 20s and 30s, only a scant proportion of which can be called jazz or "hot dance" music. No. 4: No doubt "Jack Bund" was a feebly "anglicised" version of the actual name of bandleader HANS BUND. Part 3, Early French Jazz: No. 4: Am not totally sure but very likely the spelling of that name is RANCURELL. UPDATE: Did an online seach and the name is EUDORE RANCUREL, and the tune is "Accordéon Marmelade". It is mentioned in passing here: http://www.fremeaux.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=2669&Itemid=341 No. 6: The spelling is WAL-BERG (real name Valdemar Rosenberg, a bandleader who backed up many vocalists and other featured artists in pre-war France). No. 7: Could the title of that tune actually be "SING YOU SINNERS", I wonder? UPDATE: I bet the song Crumb features really is "Sing You Sinners", and the correct and full name of the band is: FLAVIUS NOTTE AND HIS CREOLE JAZZ BAND DE LA COULOLE MONTPARNASSE It also is on this compilation: http://www.amazon.fr/Les-Grands-Orchestres-Jazz-Paris/dp/B000ZNW79E Am listening to it right now. Not bad for its time and certainly nice as background for Josephine Baker ...

Thanks David!

Sounds like something I might like to get my hands on too. However, neither Jepsen nor Bruyninckx nor the Goldmine Price Guide to Collectible Jazz Albums 1949-1969 know this record. Seems like this is REALLY rare. Any more details and info available?

Yes I noted that too (upon checking my Jepsen again) after having posted the above. So I stand corrected for this typo. But you beat me to accessing this post again to correct (minor matters you know ... comparatively speaking ... . )

Uh oh ... That's a wide field. Wider than some may imagine ...

Have the LP right in front of me: It's Capitol 5C 052.80 806 1949: I Can't Remember (vcl Tiny Irwin) 1950: Carambola Honeysuckle Rose (vcl Joe Carroll) "Carambola" was/is on the Capitol "The History of Jazz" comp "Vol. 4 - Enter The Cool" (Cap T796) that was around in several iterations/pressings from the original issue of the late 50s at least up to the mid-80s (I bought my copy as a Spanish facsimile reissue in 1983)

100% agreement. I really cannot complain about the vinyl selection in jazz and related collectible music we had here available locally (though I was far removed from London where there was even far more on the shelves as I was able to see during my stqys there in 1975 to 77). After I started listening to jazz, blues etc. and buying LPs (which fast turned into collecting) in 1975 there was constantly much, much more of interest to me than I could ever hope to be able to buy. We had 4 or 5 shops locally that constantly stocked nice items, including lots of imports, even U.S. ones (and who cared if they were cutouts - these were not inferior pressings, after all, just items that had been written off elsewhere and recycled in the sales channels here). And they had dedicated staff that constantly saw to it that even obscure "collectors only" items were stocked - for jazz, roots music (blues, Western Swing, etc.), rockabilly, you name it. Not just German licenses/pressings, UK, French and US runs too. OK, some of the imports were pricy, but there were always enough good deals around too. And current labels (MPS, Enja, etc.) were common sights too. So I really can't complain about the range available, and my only regret is that a good deal of those times (c. 1980 to 1985) fell into a period when my buying funds were tight and I missed out on a lot. The major advantage of the CD era was/is that reissuers soon went (and still go) well beyond what had been covered in the LP era and where one had little hope that they would ever go much further (unless one happened upon Japanese reissues).

"Where's the bass?" To paraphrase Jimmy Giuffre: "It is understood."

Once the reissue folks started to really fill their CDs up to near the 80min max. playing time -, yes, price really got interesting. Before that ... not so sure. And in the relatively early CD times I often noticed that those CDs that limited themselves to a skimpy 12-13 tracks (each of which wasn't that long either) were decidedly more expensive than the corresponding vinyl. And this went on for a LONG time. But a definite advantage was that during the CD era they finally started to reissue stuff that had never before been available ever since the orignal 45s or 78s (or LPs) had been released. There really was and is an upsurge in availability. Public domain laws no doubt helped a lot there too ... OTOH ... considering the initial pressing costs of CDs vs vinyls, many of those CDs aren't THAT cheap after all. But I guess you can't have'em all.

I've had this problem too and had to remind myself to be extra careful indeed. I've found removal became easier over time once you'd removed the CDs several times by pressing really dead center on the prongs before even trying to lift the CD. However, I've found CDs to be uncommonly tight on pretty strong prongs on several recent CDs I've bought. Could this be a widespread phenomenon with digipacks?