Big Beat Steve

Very interesting ... Pity that this particular tune is not on the vinyl of that concert of 27 August 1953 released on Duke LP D-1022. About 20 years ago a gentlemen (from whom I had bought a large stack of jazz magazines that he had subscribed to since his teen days in 1952) offered me a reel-to-reel tape recording of that concert of the 1953 tour that he had attended in Berlin (where he lived at the time). I politely declined because I have never owned a tape recorder or player and would not really have known what to do with it (and besides, I already owned the Duke LP of the concert at that time). But maybe I ought to have grabbed it after all? At any rate, the stack of jazz magazines also included the concert program from that very tour. Nice ... I cannot recall having ever caught a TV showing of the German music movie that this Kenton sequence was used in. Although I now see I have the flyer that was available to moviegoers at the movie theaters. Obviously another of those "boy wants to succeed in music and win the heart of his girl" flicks with the semi-plot strung together by music of all sorts ...

Good questions. The "Teen Rock" is really danceable indeed, but rather for those (whoever they were) who prefer to take it fairly easy. Certainly not a platter to "cut loose". I cannot quite make out the target group either. But as for the rock'n'roll phenomenon in the 50s, from all the information I've examined through the years (including many period documents), the US teenagers in the USA weren't all "duck-tailed teenager hoodlums" 😁 but there remained a fairly sizable proportion of young ones who kept their music consumption comparatively "clean" and "wholesome" (and whatever other tags the industry hung on the artists in question - even well before Fabian, Bobby Rydell and the rest). If you've seen the "Cry Baby" movie (regardless of how caricaturesque it overall is) I'd venture a guess the portrayal of the "clean-cut" upper class teens doing the Bunny Hop in that movie wasn't that far off the mark. This sort of teens WERE there as well. I find this kind of records fairly entertaining as one sign of the times and of R'n'R as seen by the jazz and pop industry (but I would not usually invest huge sums in them). This entire subject is a long tell-tale story of how the majors as well as established pro musicians of the pre-R'n'R pop market (who suddenly found themselves out in the cold) tried to cash in on the newly-emerged teen market of the 50s anyway but very often failed to really grasp its essence ... OTOH ... acccording to Wikipedia the early 60s Twist LP by Ronn Metcalfe that I listed was a monster hit in Canada. Coincidence ... I scored an original of this a couple of weeks ago but had hesitated to list it here. It's quite nice, somewhat modernized straight-ahead swing (FWIW Down Beat actually enthused about it and gave it 4 stars), but honestly, lumping in the four George Williams tunes written for this LP along with the "Classics" (as per the album title) is quite a stretch. And among these, cheekily listing "Empty Jug" and "Endville Chorus" (actually very thinly disguised reworkings "Little Brown Jug" and "Anvil Chorus") as his own compositions ... ho hum ... Prior to this LP, George Wiliams had done a Jimmie Lunceford tribute LP for RCA (4 1/2 stars by Down Beat). And there were more, but they are a different story again ....

Are you referring to the "Band That Never Was" rehearsal sessions that were released on Spotlite? I find them very interesting and indeed something where you wonder what this "could have been if only ... ". But I've always been curious about obscurities like these that fill the gaps of jazz history (like the recordings by Henry Jerome and others in that vein). As for the "Swingin' Friends" LP I mentioned (which was a pickup band for this one session), just listen in here and see for yourself: FWIW, I just noticed some fairly "rave" reviews of it on the internet (on Allmusic and Jazzwax) so maybe this is one of those that need a couple of relistens to be fully appreciated? But at any rate, this is OT here.

Actually you just have to dig a bit deeper than in the case of Kenton. What I have by Herman fizzles out in the mid-60s (for various reasons) but I have found that you cannot really go wrong with any of those from the period before that. I haven't regretted adding a few more since my post on page 1 of this thread (more than 1 year ago already! ), including some LPs that usually seem to be under the radar: - Blues Groove (Capitol, 1956) - Woody Herman Sextet at the Roundtable (Roulette, 1959) - Woody's Big Band Goodies (Philips, 1965) - at first sight the track listing looks like rehashes of past successes but his new treatment is a gas IMO) And among the live and non-commercial recordings (but beware! It's on CD! ), one fairly intriguing item that I picked up more or less by coincience is "Woody Herman Live at Peacock Lane Hollywood " (13 Jan. 1958) featuring Bill Harris (Jazz Hour JH-1015). It adds another layer to his "official" LPs.

This topic continues to be interesting ... Though there is some bias here becasue I guess I have 95% of his (studio) output up to c. 1960 (plus a fair share of his live recordings). Which does not mean I can stomach all of it all the time, but I derive pleasure from almost all of it at some point in time ... Though I had to let some of it grow on me, such as the "Kenton/Wagner" album (which I incidentally took the plunge after JSangrey's "plug" for it here - though easy enough to do at the giveaway price for the Creative World reissue. But I found it surprisingly accessible). I can see the point of TTK's filing system in this case. Kenton can quite well belong there .... Re- some of the other names mentioned here, by sheer coincidence I bought a US Brunswick original of the below record masterminded by Gene Roland (recorded in 1963) at a local record shop today. https://www.discogs.com/master/638699-Gene-Roland-Swingin-Friends While it is OK for post-war big band jazz listening, I find it comparatively bland and predictable in some respects. I will have to consciously listen to Roland's charts for the Kenton band again, but at any rate this one is a far cry from the "The Band That Never Was" session. So ...what's in a name, after all? OTOH, contrary to what others here seem to feel, I for one do enjoy the "Rugolo Plays Kenton" album (Mercury) quite a bit. Probably for the "fun" and "non-ponderous" aspect that TTK mentions. And finally, seeing the controversy always surrounding Kenton, the series title of the below CD released a couple of years ago in a series of big band music for the dancers will probably provoke horse laughs from some around here: 😁 https://www.discogs.com/release/24236729-Stan-Kenton-And-His-Orchestra-Swing-Artistry

I wonder how her Short Story track would fare in a blindfold test. "Newly discovered exercise by Tristano" etc.?

Could it be that the photo he is referring to is the photo at the bottom of page 1 of his bio on his homepage? https://www.billcrowbass.com/bio-1.html (I am not on Facebook, and at any rate there are so many Bill Crows on FB)

Amazing. Neither Jepsen nor Bruyninckx list this artist or the record. So it will have escaped reissuers as well.

In the same manner, even No. 2 is far too limiting. A bebop pianist need not have played with Charlie Parker ever and yet can be a bebop pianist in accordance with the way he played jazz. It can of course be argued that all those pianists who played with Charlie Parker (trying to figure in his countless rhythm sections here ) must have been bebop pianists one way or another but does this, by implication, mean that the opposite can be true too? I.e. "if you haven't played with Charlie Parker you cannot be a bebop pianist"? .

Yes, interesting (and sad in a way). But if Claude Thornhill was that far down by 1958 when Zwerin gigged with him, by comparison Boyd Raeburn (also well down compared to his 40s Progressive Jazz fame) had fared comparatively better because he had just "gone commercial". His LPs for Columbia in the later 50s ("Dance Spectacular", "Fraternity Rush" and "Teen Rock") are listenable but very mainstreamy and comparatively undistinguished by jazz standards, despite a near-all star-ish lineup. I am not familiar with the Claude Thornhill LPs from the later 50s (on Columbia and Design) but from the description on Discogs I gather they are broadly in the same category, probably leaning even more towards easy listening. From the later Boyd Raeburn items, I have his "Teen Rock" LP (Columbia CL 1073, telltale period cover - see below) and have filed it in a "big bands trying to stay with the rockin' times" corner of my collection along with these: - Dan Terry "Teen Age Dance Party" (Columbia/Harmony) - Ray Conniff "Dance The Bop" (Columbia/Harmony, released as "Rockin The Bop, Boppin' The Rock" on Philips in Europe) - Ronn Metcalfe "Twistin' At The Woodchoppers' Ball" (Barry) - "The Twist with Ray Anthony" (Capitol) Amusing late 50s/early 60s big bands if taken with a relaxed smile and not too seriously ...

Would never have imagined this might be considered a "ghost" band. But going strictly by the name on the covers, there is something to it ...

Omnipresent in the jazz bins in the record shops over here for quite a while in the 80s too. According to the Discogs listing some of the tracks are longer than the typical 78rpm limit (and would just about have fitted on a 12"). https://www.discogs.com/master/580388-Various-I-Remember-Bebop Somehow I remember this 2-LP set has been discussed (or at least mentioned approvingly) here in a previous thread. But who will be able to locate that thread?

Just rushed through the track listing. A HUGE lot of pre-war blues. Maybe too much indeed for the average collector of today (provided they can stomach that many jug and hokum tracks which I think still are an acquired taste for many blues purists), particularly those who are in the market for Bear Family boxes and who do NOT already have a lot of it on Document reissues. What is there from the post-war era looks like it relies heavily on Sam Phillips-produced items that he leased to other labels (Modern, Chess, etc.). Again something that many fans of this music may already have (to a more or less large extent) on other reissues. Still an interesting set - not least of all for those tracks of "white men singing them blues" sprinkled in between. 😁 Basically something I'd hate to have to pass up but ...

Not that rare on Sonet EP originals, alas, but it can happen on LPs too. Some of these seem to deteriorate distinctly with age. I have also observed this (though rather more rarely) on Metronome EPs. Maybe it's the pressing plant (i.e. certain orignal pressings?) that is at fault?

@Rabshakeh (post-war again this time ) : "East Coast Blues" is on the "All The Way" LP I listed.

Re- Texas Chatter: Recommended vinyl buying for Rabshakeh: The "Texas Chatter 1937-38" LP on TAX m-8015 (which has 2 takes of "Texas Chatter", BTW)

Fester Addams! And yes - this version of "Lester Leaps in" is great. (And here it is on CD:) https://www.discogs.com/release/14397447-Various-The-Sullivan-Years-Big-Band-All-Stars But you can see how choosy and picky you have to be with bands like his - the next video that comes up on YT when you watch this Harry James video is his "Soft Lights Sweet Trumpet" LP! Ouch ... 😕 Maybe this still epitomizes Harry James in the minds of many ... (The early 50s 10" pressing of this somehow came my way twice as fleamarket finds, and I've relegated both to the "Easy Listening" corner of my own fleamarket crate since)

Carl Elmer aka Ziggy Elmer? (Not to be confused with the namesakish trumpet Elman) He was singled out in the liner notes of several of the LPs I mentioned and was praised on the Hep LP.

I cannot comment on the ones mentioned so far here as I am not familiar with them. But I am not the one who can provide comprehensive assessments anyway - just individual and subjective recommendations. The ones from the post-war era of Harry James that I own and find interesting and worthwhile jazzwise (because they largely avoid his schmaltzy trumpet excursions) are these: - "Big John Special" (1948-50), Hep 24 - "Vol. 1" (1946-1949), Solid Sender SOL 501 (this has one or the other track where I'd be really interested to see how they would fare in a blindfold test - I'd bet that many would be stumped 😁) - "Vol. 2" (1944-1954), Solid Sender SOL 504 (some of its contents may be identical with "1945-1949", First Heard FH-9) - "The Uncollected Vol. 3" (1948-49), Hindsight HSR-135 - "The Uncollected Vol. 6" (1947-49), Hindsight HSR-150 - "All The Way" (2-LP set, only 2 from 1941 and 45, rest from 1946 to 1954, about half Columbias, half broadcasts), Big Band Archives, LP-2202 You will again notice that except for the last one these again focus on airshots, transcriptions and live recordings. This was not THAT intentional but was dictated by availability, and over time I have found with "name" bands (white ones, in particular) where you search for the jazzier items but can do without the obvious commmercial suspects it was hard to find really great vinyl reissues (except for the bands covered by the RCA Bluebird twofers, for example). Because whenever the majors did a "selective" reissue on one of their former big band money earners they usually went by the "something for everybody" principle and almost always included a fair share of the often-heard "memory lane" items (making a point of trying to please whoever was left of the band's erstwhile bobbysoxer audience, it seems). Or when did you last see a vinyl reissue with a specific target like "The Jazz Side of ... (add name of "name" band with a mixed-bag discography)"? So I have found that the collector's labels often were/are the better bet if you are looking for the jazzier tracks on vinyl.

True (to the extent I am familiar with his post-war output - which is far frmo complete). But to follow up Rabshakeh's quest for vinyl recommendations right away, here are the Tommy Dorsey "late 40s/early 50s modernized swing big band" records that I'd recommend in the first place according to what I've acquired over time (these are mostly broadcasts and transcriptions, so no overlap with the RCAs): - "At The Fat Man's" (1946-49), Hep 9 - "1950-52", First Time FTR-1519 - "1950-1952", Solid Sender SOL511 (the First Time and Solid Sender have some overlaps) The below two are split about 50/50 between pre-1942 and post-war recordings and would be nice if found cheaply. It's amazing hearing the TD big band digging into the R&B/Hillbilly Boogie warhorse "Birmingham Bounce": - "Swing High", Sounds of Swing LP-106 - "Easy Does it" Swing Era LP-1003 And as for his brother Jimmy, the one below (also released on Musidisc 30 JA 5221) has some amazing moments featuring a young Maynard Ferguson: - "Diz Does Everything", Big Band Archives LP-1216

I cannot quickly come up with a verbatim quote but there are numerous jazz books where 1947 is commonly given as the "end of the big band era" because during that single year leaders of a comparatively large number of big bands (particularly several "name" bands) gave up leading big bands and scaled down to combo size or quit the leader role altogether. But like I said, if you look closer there were those that did carry on (sometimes after a brief hiatus to reorganize) so the big band days did not stop altogether and you cannot paint the situation in an "all back or white" picture, although the big bands no longer reigned supreme. At any rate, the recordings to confirm ongoing big band activities are there if you investigate deeper (although the post-1947 recordings initially often were either airshots, concert recordings or transcriptions because the AFM under Petrillo called out another recording strike effective as of 01/01/1948 that largely axed commerical recordings during 1948).

Once you have listened ot the contents you will realize that the "Sweat" flows there alright! 😁 Even the slower/bluesier tracks groove along fine. As an anecdote, "Turkey Hop "(Pt.1) - also present on that Vol. 3 - made it onto an R&B/Rockabilly dancefloor compilation LP in the 80s. I guess this was the first introduction to Lionel Hampton for quite a few hepcats/rockabillies.

The 10-LP series from the 70s on German MCA Coral may not have circulated on other continents but to the best of my knowledge the "Jazz Heritage" reissue series (though it orignated in France and was collated there) saw both French and US pressings (the US pressings had sturdier cardboard covers). Whatever secondhand copies show up here may come from any of the two countries, though I am not sure if the entire series was pressed in both countries, including all the 6 volumes on Lionel Hampton. Anyway ... I have Vols. 1 to 5 on French MCA but Vol. 3 also on US MCA (MCA-1331, the French pressing of Vol. 3 is MCA 510.103) and a sixth one ("Rarities", MCA-1351) as a US pressing too. So it looks like this series at least was around in the USA as well. And if you take into account that one of the 10 German volumes was dedicated to the Carnegie Hall All-American Award concert of April 1945 that was reissued in numerous forms through the years (including in the USA) then this reduces the difference of contents somewhat after all.

I was specifically referring to the immediate post-war period (roughly 1945-50) only because I have always been interested in this transitional period and how the bands (including big bands) evolved after the arrival of "modern jazz" in all directions, either towards bebop (such as with Woody Herman, Benny Goodman, Charlie Barnet and others), "Progressive" jazz (e.g. Boyd Raeburn, Claude Thornhill, Elliott Lawrence) or R&B (most Black bands). So I have a LOT of that stuff. I've never bought that often-colported story of the entire big band scene collapsing totally in 1947 as I had discovered early on that there were many that kept going, even though the going was far rougher. And this "crossover" music they produced has always been quite interesting to me. In fact, last night after JSngry's plug for Harry James I spun several of the 1948-50 LPs I have of his band and think they will be up your alley too. The 50s bands and their recordings will follow later. And I did take notice of why you are looking for what format.