Big Beat Steve

Thanks for the link. Haven't read (and absorbed) it all yet but this is a very fiddly subject, it seems. At any rate, there seem several contributors who are heavily into the details. But piecing all these snippets of info together is bound to be difficult and will lead to conflicting assessments of what the results are all about. I have nothing to contribute to this question but the follownig sentence "For Imports, the country they are imported from is the country of release" seems to be the decisive one IMHO. BTW, since Elektro Egger was mentioned several times (some of my older "Bielefelder Katalog" volumes were handed out by them), I am surprised that someone came up with the idea of contacting them about these reissues and their importing policies. As far as I know (and as was confirmed in the obit of Manfred Scheffner in the "Süddeutsche Zeitung" online issue) the Elektro Egger shop is long gone. https://www.sueddeutsche.de/muenchen/nachruf-der-jazz-verkaeufer-1.4595638

By aural evidence (of those last few YT snippets) - yes ... there is some blackness (or should one say, "non-clean-whiteness"? ) there that needs to be acknowledged. I did enjoy "Someday Sweetheart" (he would not have been totally out of place on jukeboxes alongside Nat Cole, Charles Brown and the like). But I am underwhelmed by his singing on that tune with the Four Lads. To my ears he is straining too much to make a "singing statement". I suppose this was post-"Mule Train", right? But that RCA LP cover of a "Rockin'"(???) Frankie Laine LP with Paul Weston (of all bandleaders) providing the "Rockin'" backing?? WTF?? Who were they trying to fool? Trying desperately to grab a piece of the R'n'R action and cashing in at its most blatant while it lasted? And I pity those teens who received platters like this from their uncles and aunts ("Look, I've got a "Rockin'" birthday present for you!") 😁 These records would have been OK as somewhat more lively adult pop with swing-tinged after-hours overtones if the A&R execs had remained reasonable in their marketing, but beyond that they'd fall straight into the bracket that reissuers such as Bear Family have compiled on CDs aptly titled "Rockin' is NOT Our Business". Platters like this can be fun in retrospect, of course. There were many "hopping on the R'n'R bandwagon" jobs like this and I've explored quite a few of them for the fun of it as they do fall into the fringes of my musical "Big Beat" interests. They usually range from the interesting (and sometimes surprisingly competent if you have open ears and are not given to pigeonholing) to the grotesque, bizarre and sometimes downright awkward. But teen credibility??

Good point about Kay Starr. As for Frankie Laine proving that not all post-Swing white pop was sugary and watered down - again, check out what Arnold Shaw wrote about Frankie Laine in his "The Rockin' 50s" book. He acknowledges his "belting" style as the opposite of "crooning" but after a quick glance through the book it seems he took him as the "exception proving the rule" in white pre-R'n'R pop ("Mule Train" 'n' all ...). (I cannot provide verbatim quotes because I have the German translation of this book) However, on a more general level, if one cnosiders that by the early 50s white teenagers on the WEST Coast,for example, were already flocking to Big Jay McNeely et al., then I guess the jury would still be out when deciding to what extent Frankie Laine was NOT geared to "adult" pop and therefore all that relevant to the burgeoning teenage music buying market.

This would have been my "general-purpose" recommendation upon reading the thread starter's particular questions too. Though I also found it generic (even in that semi-pre-internet era in the latter 90s when I bought it) and was a bit underwhelmed. But I guess my expectations had been set high by other books (that focus on individual jazz styles) that were more in-depth and detailed (such as the West Coast Jazz books by Ted Gioia and Robert Gordon). But I recently re-read Rosenthal's book and liked it better this time.

Thanks again - I've thought about restapling too but this would be far from inconspicuous too. And I guess this might reduce any further "resale value" (for my heirs ) with picky purists just as much as a neat bookbinder's tape strip. I have done these staple repairs numerous times with 50s magazines where either the staples had rusted and almost disintegrated or the paper had come loose (cover and/or center double page). In some cases I've restapled in different places along the spine (taking great care to actually staple exactly on the folding "peak" of the spine and pages). In others I've removed the staples and then strengthened the insides of the cover and the center double page around the stapling areas with a length of repair strip (so these strips are fairly inconspicuous once the mag is opened and leafed through) in order to stabilize the paper. And then I've restapled in the original positions. This does look neat and stapling through these reinforcing strips greatly reduces the risk of the paper coming loose again). But like I said, this was with magazines and booklets of a collector value well below that of this JWC folio. So I really am wary about having anything like this done with the JWC folio because, given the thickness, you would need rather hefty staples. And then there is the problem that additional strengthening of the spine would still be needed because it does have some rubbing wear (where the white "core" of the paper has come through). Oh well, time will tell ...

+1 👍

Thanks Romualdo and Bakeostrin for your opinions and advice. I am still on the fence about how to proceed but see little alternatives to stabilizing the stapled sections (a few inches to and fro, or the entire length) of the spine on the front and back insides with repair strips - of the specific type and brand used by book restorers. These strips are fairly thin (but strong) and matt and do not yellow nor leave discolorations. They have been recomended to me by someone from the trade (not for this project but for earlier ones - remember these acid-laden "pulp paper" US paperbacks from the 40s and early 50s?). But alas it would be not quite inconspicuous at the front (with the inside of the front cover being black). The top staple is about 95% loose from the book/folio itself and the bottom one is not that far behind. So each time the book is handled (however carefully) the stapling of the softcover will get weaker and before long will separate completely. I am not sure how to glue this up inconspicuously (with whatever glue) but will inquire with pros from the trade. A clear mylar cover (jacket) to fit the book into is tempting for protection of the spine (already somewhat worn in my case but not disintegrating). But with the cover almost loose from the pages I cannot see how this would solve THIS problem of really keeping the cover and the iside pages (which are totally tight at the staples) together. Particularly since I imagine such an additional cover would increase the strain on the stapling on a SOFTcover (as in this case). Over time I've tidied up and "stabilized" a lot of old collectible magazines and books (from the 20s to early 60s) from my hobby areas, have tried various solutions with glue, restapling and/or clear tape of various types (depending on the kind of age wear) and have almost always found tidy solutions that look neat. But of course these never were in the price bracket of this Claxton JWC folio. A dilemma ...

Can you provide a direct link to the discussion going on at Discogs?

Interesting to read about these examples of mis-dating. There probably are countless errors like these (many probably perpetuated for decades) and correcting them (and making the corrections known - such as in the of subsequent reissues or re-reissues of the records in question) seem to be a permanent topic of discussion in some circles. At least that is the impression you get as an attentive liner notes and booklet reader. And in many cases the formerly published dates seem to be much farther off the "correct" mark than in the two cases you discuss. Thanks also for (re-)mentioning the discogrpahy history book by Epperson. I had heard about it some time ago and am now seriously considering taking the plunge. (At the risk of maybe not reading it in full more than once ...) It Is an interesting topic, and I wonder to what extent the author gives due credit to those who laid the groundwork (Delaunay, Panassié, McCarthy, Rust, Blackstone, Lange, Jepsen ... - all of them - except Blackstone - European, FWIW) and puts things into perspective when he deals with more recent publications.

Yes I do think that there are similarities in their "pianistic" chops and practices. I do not really have a horse in any race of what criticism (or should I say "reservations" or misgivings?) is objectively justified in either case. Being no pianist, I would not be able to judge such reservations to any deeper extent anyway. But even as an onlooker and "jazz listener" I cannot help feeling that - at the risk of speaking heretical words now 😁 - there are some jazz circles where the accepted present-day wisdom is "Thou shalt not criticize Tatum" but also "Thou shalt not like Peterson".

Similar estate finds might be made even over here. Though usually with much rather quantitites of each individual artist. BUT - no AHMAD JAMAL in a collection where the jazz section was this heavy on pianists?? Amazing ...

Funny that this thread comes up again. I got to thinking about this discussion the other day when I read my way through a stack of 50s jazz magazines (both US and european). One thing that reminded me of this discussion was that back then you every now and then were liable to find a deep analysis of why Art Tatum in the author's view was overrated jazzwise. In a nutshell, pianistics beyond reproach, but jazzwise all flash, fireworks, virtuosity to the detriment of the "real jazz depth" (I am paraphrasing very loosely). Seems like assessments like this were not that rare in his lifetime - though he seems to have been canonized forevermore once he had died. And lest anyone come up with a predictable reply to the tune of "those who said so didn't know shit then" - it just remains so that appreciation is in the ear of the behearer - and in everyone's approach to the subject matter. (And one man's meat, of course ...) And yes - I do enjoy my Art Tatum records immensely and pull them out more often than my (somewhat less numerous) OP records - of which also appreciate a certain number, e.g. those of his "Exclusively For My Friends" series for MPS that I own. Not to mention many of his rhythm section contributions in horn-led sessions. Yet I wonder if some of the jazz scribes active through the decades approached artists like these two from similar angles and found fault with certain aspects of their works for what to them seemed to be similair reasons.

Can't let Soulpope and Optatio do all the tough work, so ...

Online newspaper sites report that Swedish jazz basisst and composer Georg Riedel has died at the age of 90. RIP

Well, at least "mine" have seen some (street or juke joint dancefloor?) use! 😁

Two more ...

Ha, you beat me to it ... Was about to pull this one off my shelf. Just to show how the color of a cover can be pure coiuncidence (see my yesterday's post in the "Blue" covers thread ). Anyway ... elsewhere there seem to be some strange notions of "purple" colors in this thread ... Some look predominantly and decidedly more BLUE to me.

All the better, then ... But what I wanted to hint at is that if you exclude the word "blue" and therefore the color that highlights the title and motto of the album you just as much risk ending up with GENERIC reissue covers such as in the case of the ones I showed (where the color is pure coincidence ).

You asked for it so this is what you get ...

And then ...

I remember those days too, particularly the Lester Young Story twofer (that I bought at once from high school student's money). I remember I also wondered about this being Vol. 1 but nowhere any Vols. 2 etc. in sight. Until years later (at a time my buying priorities had shifted somewhat) I found out they did in fact exist but somewhow never got distributed to any significant degree here so you just never saw them. Looking them up on Discogs now I see Vol. 1 was released in 1976, Vol. 2 in 1977 and vol. 4 in 1979. Not that excessively delayed, it seems ... (And to be honest, in hindsight I am glad I never got my hands on these later volumes back then. Buying the music in different packagings - particularly the Basie Columbia sessions - made much more sense to me) As for Bird, I don't know about reissues generally available in the US in the mid-70s, but I remember I bought a Bird twofer over here from the Jazz History series on German Verve plus another LP with Verve masters on Dutch Mercury (Jazz Masters series) rather early on (1977 or so). So these were some of the starters. As for you not "longing for the good old days", I get your point, particularly in today's reissue world where you can get almost anything not just as downloads (if you go for that medium) but also in a zillion different "Complete" CD box packagings at almost any moment you want them. But honestly - didn't you ever reflect on how you approached and explored the music back then? Sometimes I do - and it makes me wonder if we actually still enjoy, absorb and digest the music as intensely today where almost everything is at one's fingertips (and earbuds 😁). Whereas back then, you felt incredibly lucky after having gotten your hands on this or that 12- or 16-track reissue LP of any earlier favorite artist or band of yours that had been OOP for ages. And then you went on to really absorb each and every tune in full, and over and over again. Just because you knew this was what you had and nothing more - for the time being. It may sound odd but I still can feel that vibe of the "good old days" when I peruse old record catalogs that list these items (or when I spin the LPs again). I am far from sure we always appreciate the indivdiual tracks to the same extent in today's world where you can let an artist's complete work flood your ears in one longish session at any moment. (Sometimes to the detriment of the music and one's listening experience, to be honest, because quite a bit of music from the 78rpm era was not intended to be listened to in one go but piece by piece at (release) intervals. ) Just saying ...

Re-reading this thread now, with a lapse of close to 1 year, this reminds me that last fall I locally picked up really chep clearance sale NM copies of the "Basie & Eckstine" and "Basie & Strings" LPs on Roulette (to - almost - complete my run of the Roulette Basie series). The other day I spun the Eckstine LP again. The Basie band pulls it off well, and Eckstine fits in better than I had feared from a swinging point of view (playing it passably safe repertoire-wise may have helped). But I still cannot quite warm up to his "declamatory" singing style in such a jazz setting. (Can't quite put it into words why I like the "declamatory" singing of Joe Williams better ...) But it's OK for me the way it is anyway ... Rhough certainly no "desert island" fare.

Ooh ... Some time ago I bought a used copy of Jazz Solography Series Vol. 4 (Charlie Christian plus Robert Normann and Oscar Aleman) that had come up at a giveaway price in the music book section of a local used records store. It's very thorough, to say the least. (Though maybe outdated in places by now due to more recent discoveries.) RIP and thanks for your untiring work that many others have profited from.

As far as I recall (reading about it) this mixup was between Red Mitchell and Red Kelly.

Great news! Thanks for the link. Actually, I could not resist the temptation and saved it "for eternity".