Big Beat Steve

I wonder if we have lost all the non-German(ophonic) fourmists in these exchanges by now? 😄 But the points raised by you are the core of the problem: There is a lot going on in these areas that is hardly (or not at all) translatable adequately if you really want to capture and reproduce the feel, the insider's terminology or slang and the "vibes" of the original language. Which is what you ought to aim for if such texts are to be translated properly at all. German is not the ideal language for that. And even if you come up with lots and lots of "insider slang" in the target language (that at first sight look like "equivalents") this will often be skewed because the "insider worlds" and the connotations that go with it are not always the same in a different language (see Gheorghe's Austrian-Viennese German example above, for example). So ... better leave well enough alone "and learn some fucking English"!

Though the latter one would be feasible in a passably idiomatic manner: "Er spielte, als ginge es um sein Leben" (He played as if his life depended on it) (to name just one possibility).

Quite right. I happen to be a professional translator (with close to 40 years of professional experience "on my back" - mostly in many areas of engineering and economics but also a fair number of non-fiction books), and honestly - regardless of how interesting the subject matter might be to me personally, I would not have gone out of my way in any attempts to acquire translation assignments for music books (particularly jazz) into German. If it is to be really, really well done, it is a highly demanding and time-consuming task. Though the translation standards for jazz books have improved through the decades on the German market. Some time ago I chanced upon an original copy of the German translation of Sidney Finkelstein's (at the time) influential "Jazz - A People's Music". The German version clearly was well-intentioned but awkward and corny in more ways than one. Though probably not bad, objectively speaking. I have read a few German translations (by leading publishers) from the same (50s) period of novels by Sinclair Lewis - ouch .... Talking about books recently discussed here, the German version of "Hear Me Talkin' To Ya" is relatively acceptable, given the times it was published (and the then prevailing standards in the profession). But the colloquial nature of the original texts may have helped here. I am also one of those who bought Ross Russell's "Bird Lives" back in the 70s, and - fiction or not - it did give me insights, including those parts that "may well have happened that way". (And without wanting to go into greater detail, reports of other documented backstage and off-stage incidents somewhat corroborate the likelihood of some of Russell's fictionalizations) One day in the later 80s I received a German copy of this book (first published in German by Hannibal in 1985) by a well-meaning relative. It WAS readable but IIRC I put it away before I got to the end because compared to the orignal it just was uneven. I still have the book in a corner but have not looked at it in decades. I might pick it up one day if I have a LOT of time to do a private critical comparison with the original. (Yes, "professional deformation", I know ... ) Speaking of Hannibal publishers (of Vienna), for a time in the 90s a lot of their (translated) musician biographies were commonplace at Zweitausendeins. I picked up several of them (Dexter Gordon, Woody Herman, Kenny Clarke a.o. as well as Sally Placksin's Women in Jazz), but again was underwhelmed. In many places you got a distinct feeling the translator was grappling for words, and in some cases missed a finer point that clearly showed that he or she was not sufficiently familiar with the artists or that style of music. Which did not bode well for any trust by the (knowledgeable) reader in the German text. By comparison (again IIRC), the Sally Placksin book had the best translation. Another German one I recently got (my wife was unaware I - of course - already owned the U.S. printing) was the German translation of "Sam Phillips" by Peter Guralnick. This recent publication probably reflects the typical state of the art in the profession and should read well enough to most readers. I am not sure I would have been able to do it vastly better overall (particularly because translators usually have to work against insanely sick publisher's deadlines). Yet the German version has certain quirks that make it sound corny ever so often too, and in some cases there are goofs that - again - make you realize the translator failed to double-check the way he rendered the facts into German (in short, he misunderstood ...). So ... overall I still prefer reading any music books in the orignal language. Be it English or French or any other language I at least know sufficiently well to cope with (Spanish, Swedish). Yet this begs another question: Are English translations always that much better? One jazz book I have been (re-)reading in recent times was/is "Cubano Be Cubano Bop - One hundred Years of jazz in Cuba" by Leonard Acosta. I had started on it after I had bought it in 2007 but put it away as I found the going a bit rough with all that "name calling". But what bothers me in the first place now is the English translation which - personally speaking - grates me more and more (I am about one third through the book now). It just is so convoluted, awkward, stiff and clumsy. Strictly linguistically, what the translator wrote certainly is correct for the most part. But his wording and style just are so stiff, old-fashioned and stilted. My Spanish is relatively rusted up (but not enough to keep me from picking up Jordi Pujol's "Jazz en Barcelona" from time to time) but the more I continue with the Acosta book the more I feel this translator had fallen into the trap of writing Spanish with English words. Very often you literally sense the wording of the Spanish text through his translation. Which is not the way to tackle such a subject in the first place. Because both languages in their structure and typical ways of expessing things fluently really work differently. In short, at least in part a disservice to the subject of the book and a missed opportunity ... Having got all this off my chest , I am now beginning to wonder what those who have read the well-circulated English editions of Joachim E. Berendt's "Jazz Book", for example, have to say about THAT English edition ...

That's the one that came to my mind first when I saw the title of this thread. Classic stuff. A friend had it in our high schol days in the latter 70s, and a couple of years later I got my own copy of it.

About the presumed recording date: Remember this was the state of discographical knowledge as of 1950. Superseded long since. As for the Selmer logo, I am aware the one on the record label is the one used on the instruments. As Selmer used a different (simpler) logo in their magazine ads in 1947/48 (actually using different typefaces here and there), however, these ads are no indicators of when the releases of the records on the Selmer label (using the same Selmer logo) may have started. I have just checked a few more Jazz Hots from that period, and the first one that features the actual Selmer logo in their instrument ads is from March 1949. Now when did releases on the Selmer label actually start and how long after their recording session did "Hawk Variations" stay in the can?

Actually it didn't. Looking for a Selmer ad in these mags with the exact typeface used on the record label (and figuring on the instruments) - their ads from 1946 had a plain sans-serif "SELMER" typeface - I randomly pulled out the September 1950 issue and found the below ad on page 2: Wondering if this ad might be intended as a plug for a Selmer product inside the mag I looked up the Record Reviews section, and lo and behold, there was the review of "Hawk's Variations"! FWIW, here is what it says (translated relatively faithfully to stick to the tone of the French scribe - André Clergeat, it seems): "This is certainly one of the most original records we have had the pleasure of reviewing for a long time. What we have here is an unaccompanied improvisation by Coleman Hawkins. This just about says enough about how this record is bound to unsettle most fans. Provided our informations are correct, this recording was made by Moe Asch at the same time as the recording published by Norman Granz in his recent "Jazz Scene" album. Coleman Hawkins had been longing for an opportunity to make an unaccompanied recording for quite some time, and this listening experience certainly is most interesting. The lack of a rhythm section does not detract in any way from the pleasure any admirer of the great saxophonist will derive from listening to this recording where his sumptuous sonority really comes into its own. His improvisations develop into magnificent arabesques throughout both sides of the disc, and keen listeners will rapidly have imagined by themselves the rhythmic and hamronic accompaniment to go with this performance." On a side note, this review is followed by a brief review of Selmer Y 7136 (not listed on Discogs; Erroll Garner - The Man I Love/Don't Blame Me).

Of course. And according to Discogs the Selmer RECORD label was related to Ducretet Thomson (distribution? Some other Selmer 78s had identical catalog numbers on both Selmer and Ducretet Thomson). And the same source says the Hawk Variations record was presed by Pathé Marconi.

I am not so sure. The label shown further above with a catalog no. of Y 7129 looks like this number came out of an ongoing series. "Jazz - American Series" reads like this was a release series of masters originally recorded in the USA (there were PLENTY of labels in early post-war France - and certain other European countries - that thrived on such release practices). Discogs shows these from that "Jazz-American Series" series (and their listing may well be incomplete): https://www.discogs.com/label/1297501-Jazz-American-Series And Discogs has this on the Selmer label as such: https://www.discogs.com/label/391701-Selmer?page=1 I am not sure what "Série Medium" means for this label but it looks like one of several record series released in parallel. BTW, I stand corrected (again ...) for the BARONET release of these tracks: According to Discogs this was a DANISH re-release following the Selmer release (on a label launched by BARON Timme Rosenkrantz - shouldn't we have guessed?): https://www.discogs.com/release/20436736-Coleman-Hawkins-Hawks-Variations I'll check my (complete) collection of Jazz Hot from that period to see if there is a review of Y-7129 somewhere but this will take time.

I wouldn't disagree abut Selmer. But it seemed surprising to me that this was first released in France and not in the USA. So I (apparently mistakenly) assumed that the US Baronet release listed in the Bruyninckx discography was the first one.

What a combination ...🤨 Even less credible than that Beatles vs Four Seasons "Battle of the Supergroups"-style LP released on Capitol while Capitol held the rights to the Beatles recordings ...

As for Selmer, I don't know which was first - not even 100% so after reading the old thread from 2004 linked above. I know it was released on the French Selmer label but the Bruyninckx discography lists a Baronet release number first, so I assumed the recording was released in the US first and then adopted by Selmer for release on the French market. Maybe I'll find a review of this record in my old copies of Jazz Hot that will provide further clues.

And predated by "Hawk's Variations" Pt. 1 and Pt. 2 recorded by Coleman Hawkins as unaccompanied tenor solos for the Baronet label (probably in early 1945, according to some discographers).

Very helpful! So a public THANK YOU is in order.

Found the three CDs of that set for the "pricey" sum of 1 EUR each at the clearout sale of a local record store about 4 weeks ago - but no box case nor booklet, unfortunately. Did find the discographical details online but to get some (more) context surrounding these recordings I'd love to get my hands on a scan of the relevant sections of the booklet. Apart from that - yes, these recordings are very interesting - and enlightening. Re- other recommendations, the "Heinrich Heine/Attila Zoller LP mentioned earlier is called "Lyrik und Jazz" and is an achievement in its genre (but probably was plugged to death in the media at the time of its release in ANOTHER attempt at securing "respectability" of jazz among a "wider" public). But to appreciate it fully you would have to be able to master the German language, of course. But it's not overly expensive on amazon: https://www.amazon.de/Heinrich-Heine-Lyrik-Jazz-Westphal/dp/B000GH3DVK

96 years? Wow ..had no idea he was still around ... RIP and thanks for your name as a safe bet when picking up records to my liking from the heyday of "Out West" jazz. I guess most of his work for Kenton (plus some more for others) is on my shelves, and I have all of his 50s jazz leader dates on vinyl (Octet (Capitol), Fabulous (Coral), Jive For Five (Andex), In A Jazz Orbit (Andex), Great Big Band (Capitol, both mono and stereo), and would find it hard to recommend one clearly above all others. But I tend to lean a tiny bit towards his "Great Big Band" set. So, TTK, the "Original Bill Holamn Band - Complete Recordings" 2-CD set that appears in one of the Youtube links of the earlier post by Stompin' would be one way of rounding up the essentials from that period in a convenient package. (And don't let yourself be talked or bullied out of it just because it is on Lone Hill. ) Just listening to "A View From The Side" right now. I'd say it is a nice way of transposing his earlier style he became renowned for in a somewhat more contemporary context without trying to reinvent the wheel.

Yet it's amazing to see this sort of shortcuts or trickery happen with a label that does seem to be official (which UMI Jazz Germany is, I suppose?) ...

But what's that with "So Much Doldinger" being claimed to be an "original" album?? Any way you look at it (and compare liner notes and discographical entries), "So Much Doldinger" (a release for the German Record Club DSC) ORIGINALLY was a compilation of "Jazz Made in Germany" (released as "Dig Doldinger" in the USA) and of "Live at Blue Note Berlin" and is made up of half of each of these LPs. So what they did here was to usurp the title of that compilation LP and package assorted individual tracks onto that extra CD. Certainly nice fillers but no "original" ALBUM, this ...?? I wonder what made them shy away from marketing this as "4 Original Albums plus Bonus tracks" or similar? Have EPs or individual tracks become unmarketable to today's sales whiz kids? If one of these P.D. labels had done that one of their sets they would have been torn to shreds for misrepresentation by the usual suspects ... 😁

There is a difference betwen covering 80 (or even 50) to 100 years or 10 years (as in this case) on some 300 pages. So doesn't this explain that? I think I know what you mean but what you call "slow going" is what i would call "intense".

Started re-reading it AGAIN (in small instalments) 2-3 days ago. Still find it as rewarding as 25+ years ago.

FWIW, this session is also listed in the Bruyninckx discography (the version released in instalments as PDF files - but which certainly predates any publications in the Lord discography). So rumors about the existence of this release must have been around for a while.

I came to using Discogs regularly (and even buying there) relatively late (only a couple of years ago) but do appreciate the outline of an artist's output this site provides. The "crumbhunters" ' input to indicate even minor differences in releases, pressings, etc., is useful to me and has helped me in identifying pressings (at least approximately, as I realize you never know where an uncorrected mistake or omission might hide). I dont expect session details there but am glad when they ARE there (they sometimes are). So I take it above all as a database of the physical items that the music was released on to the public. Not as a discography in the stricter sense. One thing I find annoying is the huge amount of multiple entries. When you look for a particular record there you often find one and the same item (not different pressing runs or reissues) has been entered several times - by different people at differnt times - but never consolidated into ONE entry. They really ought to work on that ...

The first record I ever bought (at about 3 months short of my 15th birthday) was an RCA "Best of" compilation by Duane Eddy. It wasn't too long before I sort of tired of his style and found more interesting R'n'R guitar players elsewhere but later on I did pick up comprehensive vinyl reissues of his Jamie recordings. For completeness sake and to occasionally revive old memories. R.I.P.

OT, and yet ... The above statement is a bit ambiguous. Are the tune titles on the "brown bag" Herbie Nichols twofer alrerady those that Michael Cuscuna was able to reassign according to the session notes or are they non-definitive "provisional" titles?

A note (just in case ...) to those wondering: I just checked the "Lestorian Notes" discography by Piet Koster and Harm Mobach that (on the face of it) is ultra-detailed. But no trace of that tune in the song title index. Yet the entry IS there. It is listed as "(Just a) Little Bit South of North Carolia" and therefore is filed under "L" and also marks the beginning of the 1942 entries in the actual discography. The LP on Everybody's 3002 is nice indeed. I picked up a copy last year when I had (more or less) first pick among a 5000-LP jazz collection our #1 record shop had gotten in. And yes, the 1944 recordings by the Basie band on that LP are fine. But "live 1944 Basie" (including Prez soloing) is exceedingly plentiful out there on various collector labels. So you can easily get drowned in the flood.

Indeed! But signs and part of the times. Remembered differently according to everyone's musical conditioning during that period. Their record contract with MPS made them a staple on a wide variety of German Music shows and broadcasts during the 70s. Usually in (Very 😁) "Easy Listening" formats - for people not quite sophisticated enough to really dig the Siwngle Singers, for example. Not my cuppa, neither then nor now, never miend their undoiubted craftsmanship. But I remember back then I came to sit them out as part of the intermission fillers you were often served, and today I take them as part of the "70s sound" for "adult teens". They probably were also part of the typical music served on a radio show on Sunday nights (taken over from Austrian radio, I think) called "Schlager für Fortgeschrittene" ("Pop music for avanced listeners") hosted by Gerhard Bronner (whom Gheorghe no doubt remembers WELL!). The few other artists I remember from these shows were the Swingle Singers and very similar acts as well as Brazilian latter-day Bossa Nova tunes (with what to my young'un's ears sounded like puzzling, deliberately lifeless singalong plodding). And among the non-vocal items there may well have been some production that would be filed under "sophisticated elevator music". To the ears of this 14-to-15 year-old just getting seriously into music (though not at all the then current hit parade or rock "in crowd" stuff) the fare served there came across as utterly bizarre sounds, making me wonder who on earth would ever buy this and what the point of producing such music was anyway ... Oh well ... BTW, seeing these clips now, I now remember that back in the day I never would have guessed they were made up of only 1 female but 3 males. To the average listener they must have sounded more like 3 females and 1 male. And I remember now this is how I visualized them back then too.