Big Beat Steve

More on Jack McVea here: http://www.answers.com/topic/jack-mcvea http://www.jazzhouse.org/gone/lastpost2.php3?edit=979815042 As for the rest, more tonight (have to listen to the record again first).

Depends on price and condition. TOPS probably didn't have the greatest vinyl in the world. I LIKE that music! Good, freewheeling blowing ... And yes, it IS a live recording. I'll give it a listen tonight and tell you then ... can't really recall how good/bad the fidelity is...

I fully agree with what Felser and Morganized just said. Too much of what's been said against Lone Hill and Fresh Sound does not give the whole picture, and there is nothing wrong with minor labels, and the 50-year copyright limit laws make this legal in a good deal of the world where the record buyers for this kind of music are. No point in debating this ... I can understand those who bemoan that labels such as Lone Hill that seem to rip off other recent releases. I recently checked out the Parker/Gillespie Town Hall concert CD on Uptown and was slightly surprised to see that the material (although a fairly recent issue) already seems to crop up on two other (European?) labels. That said, as a customer (not a record reseller) I'd certainly not go for a Lone Hilll release if a better produced and/or more complete release of the same material is available elsewhere on CD - for the simple reason that in many cases (at least over here in Europe) the price difference between Lone Hill and what some here call more "legit" (whatever that may mean in view of the 50-year copyright laws in Europe that are just that - laws and therefore perfectly LEGAL, like it or not!) isn't that big! Overall I haven't seen too many of the Lone Hill releases yet though I will always be grateful to Fresh Sound and similar repro reissue labels that reissued a HUGE amount of cool 50s jazz LP's back in the VINYL days that NOBODY, but really NOBODY (least of all in the USA where for ages they have been as shortsighted as they come in their reissue policies) ever cared about and that NOBODY would EVER have reissued anywhere else on LP! And I really cannot see that all of this was illegal because at that time (the 80s) the 50-year limit had not been reached AND Fresh Sound usually put their full address on the sleeves, making them easy to track down. Besides, Jordi Pujol isn't exactly an unknown quantity (incuding in political circles). As for the "Japanese" reissue programs, come on now! Jap reissues may be halfway affordable in the States but over here in Europe whenever any reissue says "Japan", the prices go through the roof and you are being ripped off in a big way by almost anybody who resells these! Not really very affordable in the long run ... A final word on royalties in conjunction with the 50-year limit (and this also applies to the reply by David Weiss above): Like it's been said above, in many cases the original artists are long dead, and it is a question of ethics indeed whether their material is to benefit the heirs of their heirs (!) forever, i.e the generation AFTER their children. Besides, many of those 50+ year-old reissues date back even further and were made at a time (especially in the 78 rpm era or in the R&B field) when the artists certainly never received ANY royalties from their work as they had been pressed into signing recordings contracts that netted them a flat fee for a session only. Now do you really think present-day "legit" owners of those labels would now all of a sudden go about crying out loud about the shadiness for their predecessors and go on to track down the heirs of the artists and ruefully pay them royalties that may have been their due for decades? Do you really think that this would be so in each and EVERY case where it might be called for? Or would they just say "A contract is a contract" forever? And since ethics is mentioned so often here, how about the ethical side of buying LEGIT reissues of Count Basie's late 30s Decca material, for example? As you all know Decca's Dave Kapp (or whoever of his underlings did the negotiations) managed to screw him in a big way by getting Basie to sign a contract for recording 24 sides (including MANY of his later classics!) for a flat fee of §750. Even John Hammond managed to get only marginal improvements on this! Is it ethical to make the heirs and successors of Dave Kapp's doings benefit from this? Does anybody really have to feel THAT guilty about buying non-legit releases under THESE cicrumstances? The same goes for the practices of other label owners, too, such as Herman Lubinsky at Savoy or the Bihari at Modern/RPM. Also, I'd really like to see what "legit" U.S. companies have been doing in this respect in the PAST during the entire period when reissues started hitting the market. Starting in the late 70s and all through the 80s, Jonas Bernholm from Sweden reissued a HUGE amount of fantastic R&B on his Route 66 label as well as its subsidiaries (Juke Box Lil, Mr R&B, Saxophonograph, etc.). He made a point of paying the artists royalties and the royalty fees paid to the RECORDING artists (NOT the original labels!) were clearly indicated on each release. From a source close to him at the time I understand he usually went so far as to ADVANCE the royalties for a production run of 2000 LP's to the original artists at the time of release, and it is said that this came as a god-send to many artists featured on these LP's such as Amos Milburn who was severely ill at the time. Again, you U.S. forumists who are so concerned about legit-only releases - my question is: What did U.S. companies do at that time? The Kent label being non-shady? Aw c'mon! In short, the ethics issue of royalties might often backfire if you look closer at what happened when the recordings were made. Just my 2c

I think I have the U.K. Vogue pressing of this 10" LP (will look it up tonight when I get home from work), and it can be found in the discographies. I guess it was a recording from one of the Gene Norman Just Jazz concerts. This has been reissued in the "Jazz Off The Air" LP series on the Spotlite label (was Vol. 2, I think).

Well, the books I mentioned were ENGLISH-Language editions! This is why I did not even mention Bill Wyman's Blues history book that's been on sale there recently (I'd have preferred the English version too but this one isn't that bad as a translation). Obviously I am thinking of "art" books only here because for the most part this is where the JAZZ literature that we might be thinking of here first is usually found (with a few notable exceptions such as Boris Vian's collected writings on jazz that 2001 carried in its German translation a couple of years ago). As for general literature and fiction books, I don't think there is a shortage of sources for finding almost anything at cut prices today in these times of the internet, and 2001 can't have 'em all if they want to retain their special image.

German books only ? NAH! The B.B. King book they currently have on offer is in English - and it's a beaut! And late last year they had the BEBOP volume of the "Third Ear" record guide at a giveaway price. (Yeah I know - the Scott Yanow detractors might well lurk just around the corner but I like it anway - wish I had be able to get that anywhere near that price when I bought my copy 5 or 6 years ago) In 2005 they had William Gottlieb's jazz picture book, and there's LOTS more in English on their book tables, both related to our music and to lots of other subjects!

Here in Holland the early titles - I think - were only available as imports (though on a very low scale). I have never seen any European pressings, except for some of the later titles (7400+) on the German Funckler label (nice laminated jackets and solid pressings). Some of the Swingville/Moodsville/Bluesville titles which were sold here had European jackets (Interdisc) but contained original pressings. Barclay issued PR in France, up to about 7200, then I think Voix de son Maitre . Bellaphon, then Saba in Germany. Not nearly so clear about the periods, however. Some Fontanas from MV etc, also. MG Totally correct about Bellaphon for Germany, MG. And then there were Prestige records pressed and distributed (not only in Scandinavia) by METRONOME.

Then take it easy, take a rest and let's both cut out of this and let others come up with more suggestions for further listening. Here's to your speedy recovery

Hey, what've you been smoking? :D

A lot of them must have been different. I have a 60s U.K. release of "Saxophone Colossus" on the Stateside label. Basically different artwork too ...

If you don't mind getting duplications that's fine. And 78s (or 50s originals) are something else, of course. I don't mind my Kenton 78s also appearing on my Kenton reissue vinyl (some 30 or 40 LP's or so) either. But getting more or less the same material over again from one CD reissue to the next and ending up with lots of overlap? I dunno ... BTW, a question to those in the know: Did Fresh Sound ever transfer their reissues of 50s Shorty Rogers LP's to their CD catalog? Take care

Nothing wrong with that, Chewy. Compilations are Ok if you do not want to go much further with any particular artist. I just wanted to mention the duplications. And it's a pity they don't include the "Shorts Courts the Count" stuff.

Ha! Looks like this one (on the Giant Steps Records label, right?) is one of those re-compilations that so many seem to complain about here. It seems to be available with the same contents from another (non-RCA) label: http://www.alphamusic.de/1957295.html This more or less duplicates the RCA Short Stops CD (NOT the 2-LP set) and should be nice for a first (!) listening to Shorty but on the other hand, two thirds of the first CD are rather pointless if you ever want to get any deeply into Herman, Kenton or Rumsey because then you are bound to accumulate all of these tracks elsewhere. And remember - among Shorty Rogers' leader recordings it only includes a sampling of his Capitol and RCA stuff but none of his Contemporary or Atlantic ("Martians") material. So it all depends on whether you are content with getting a representative compilation or if you want to get any deeper into Shorty's recordings (because if you want to you will find all of this over again on other releases).

That just about sums it up - in a positive way, I'd say. What's wrong with combining these musical elements? That "Rat Pack" music (or "lounge" music as others might call it) never appealed too much to me, for example, but in this package it adds a new twist to contemporary swing-based music. Formerly combinations like this would have been called "crossover", and what used to be "authentic" hard bop like they used to play in the late 50s/early 60s became "post-bop" in the process or whatever so purists have nothing to complain about. Post-bop isn't that much closer to hard bop than some (!) neo-swing is to mainstream swing. Cross-breedings like this have always existed so don't sneer at it. As for the music, I never really went for Big Bad Voodoo Daddy that much when that Neo-Swing thing was happening in the 90s (if the CD's I've heard ae anything to go by then bands like Indigo Swing, the New Morty Show, The Royal Crown Revue or Big Time Operator just sounded a lot more interesting to me - not to mention Eddie Reed or Bill Elliott) but they did contribute to making non-jazz people aware of Swing as a musical style worth exploring. And fad or not - all these bands did contribute to putting "the real thing", i.e. 30s and 40s swing, back into a lot of listener's ears, and at least over here in Europe they have turned on quite a few listeners to authentic swing and, hence, to jazz, and have made a few new addicts. That's more than can be said of certain "pure" avantgarde jazz forms so what more can you expect under these circumstances?

Listen to BOTH but be careful in your decisions. Rogers & Pepper at the Lighthouse is GREAT, as are the "Martians" albums on Atlantic. And "Short Stops" would also be great as an INTRODUCTION to Shorty's RCA recordings but MAKE SURE the CD you have been suggested actually includes ALL that is on the "Short Stops" VINYL on RCA. Originally this was a TWO-LP set and also included the entire "Shorty Courts the Count" LP (plus other material such as the "Wild One" soundtrack), and when CD's came along U.S. record companies in particular were known to rehash previously issued vinyl under the same title in rather a slapdash manner on CD to cash in on the growing CD market but butchered the contents in the process, i.e. a couple of tracks are likely to have been eliminated just to make everything fit on one CD. This can be VERY annoying when you want to make additional purchases as you will end up with LOTs of duplicate tracks. So the LP might well be the better buy. There are other nice 50s releases on the RCA and Contemporary labels that are worth getting. Speaking of the "Wild One" soundtrack, don't let yourself get confused by the name Leith Stevens mentioned above. There was a totally different LP out by the "Leith Stevens All Stars" that included the soundtrack items plus other "related" tracks to make up one complet 12in LP. Nice as well (but hard to get) but this is NOT the Shorty Rogers music. So be sure which one you get.

Good idea ... If I have the time I'll either listen to the soundtrack or get out the VHS cassette tonight ... Calloway, Waller and the "Tramp band" are just great! (and the "rest" ain't bad either)

Or we might all have to switch EUROPEAN jazz for good. Take Caprice or Dragon for Swedish jazz, Riviera for reissues of Italian jazz, and Czech jazz has quite a few reissues going too, and there are others elsewhere, etc. etc. And what is more - if European collector labels just were to focus on reissuing EUROPEAN jazz then none of the Americans who seem so terribly concerned about the 50-year limit of the Public Domain issue (yet buy the discs) won't have to complain anymore at all. No, seriously - and while I won't want to start the P.D. debate over again (it's all been said), aren't the European laws just that - laws? And whatever is done in accordance with (!) those laws is therefore perfectly legal, and we Europeans have no need to come up with excuses. And besides, how many U.S. jazz records would NEVER EVER have been reissued anywhere if no Europeans had ever taken the initiative? I've said it before and am going to say it again: Somehow I wonder how labels such as Document or Ace or Krazy Kat manage to make nicely done CD reissues happen that are produced and remastered (to the extent possible) anew and are not just recyclates of remastered tracks from other CD's released shortly before (the main argument brought up against companies such as Proper and Membran as it discourages legit sources from producing NEW reissues for fear that they will be cannibalised by those cheapo labels immediately after their release). And where would all those recordings on all those independent labels end up if nobody took care of them? The big conglomerates couldn't care less anyway ...

Not the SWEDES FROM JAZZVILLE LP on EPIC (Columbia subsidiary), I suppose?

And same here! Till later Steve

We're severely OT now but I will try to answer anyhow: I guess this is a question you would have to ask those who bought any of those CD series at the time. Completists who searched out the studio recordings being more numerous maybe ... Not everybody caring that much for alternates if he is intent on getting the master take of every studio recording first... And money is limited so hardly anybody can afford everything ... Who knows ... At any rate, I remember seeing both series in CD stalls at the time (though the Classics series always was stocked to a greater extent than the MoJ series of which the shops that I happened to visit always carried only a certain cross-section) and often was appalled by the fact that I hardly ever would have managed to get more than maybe half the contents of a CD that was new to my collection (which includes a fairly decent selection on vinyl). Some may have been glad to dump all their vinyl and go for CD's only but even they probably found themselves drowning in a flood of disorganized and often overlapping reissues with numerous companies jumping on the bandwagon and not enough buyers remaining for all the discs pushed onto this comparatively small market ... A pity in every respect ... By the way, the Classics series seems to be very close to being belly up as well so nothing much is won for the collector ... This is why I somehow envy the blues people and the reissue policy of some of their collector labels where you did indeed find reissues where the labels were NOT ashamed of putting out discs that basically said "This record is intended to fill gaps in the blues fans collections and therefore explicity avoids duplicating tracks with this and that currently or recently available record..." I find it hard to believe that the pre-war blues market is that much bigger than that of 20s to 50s jazz or are pre-war blues fans that much more discerning?

Brownie, the photographer is HERMAN LEONARD. This pic is on page 156 of the "L'Oeil du Jazz" book on Leonard's jazz photographs published by Filipacchi in 1985 (which I figure you are bound to have somehwere ). @king ubu: About that March 15, 1956 session once more: Good to see it's so easily available as a reissue. Back in 2002 I was rather surprised to see a VG- copy (!!) of the CfD 10inch release sold for a whopping $512.00 on eBay. (A case for the eBay madness thread here...) This made me cherish my German original 10in release (in NM condition) all the more, though I would not have parted with it anyway ...

Are you really surprised? Just remember how much of this series duplicated the material in the "CLASSICS" CD series. Somehow I envy the lovers of really old ("classic") pre-war blues. They sure got a fine thing going with all those reissues on the Wolf, Document and similar labels that tried to get really everything in that field of music back into reissue yet try to avoid duplication wherever possible and are quite prepared to put out records that clearly are compiled accordingly.

The March 16, 1956 session is this one I mentioned above: Zoot Sims with Henri Renaud/Jon Eardley (Swing, originally on Ducretet-Thomson) It was in that LP reissue series on the Swing label a couple of years back. The session recorded the day before (March 15, 1956) was not only on that CfD record club label but also on a German "Deutscher Schallplattenclub" 10-incher. So it might even have been on a corresponding Swiss ExLibris issue and you might perhaps find it at a fleamarket somewhere if you want an original by all means ...

I don't have the background knowledge that Larry Kart evidently has and I won't go into the debate over whether the early or late Zoot was better as I haven't listened to enough of his later work to really judge it. In addition to his 50s recordings that I mentioned earlier (one era of jazz of particular interest to me so this is why have these), just an additional plug for the two Zoot LP's with Bob Brookmeyer for the Storyville label (later reissued on Black Lion - nice stuff, although those occasional vocals by Zoot are a bit odd) and of course his Blue Note item with Jutta Hipp which I totally forgot earlier. I also agree that Quincy Jones' "This is How I Feel About Jazz" has great solo parts. However, as for the goodies in the 70s Pablo recordings by Zoot, I'd go for "Basie and Zoot" from 1975 first (one I have passed by too often in the past and which is now on my shopping ist).

Don't know the one you started with but here are a few of my favorites. I have a lot of his 50s LP's (vinyl) and particularly like the following: Zoot Sims Quartets (Prestige) Zoot Sims with Henri Renaud/Jon Eardley (Swing, originally on Ducretet-Thomson) The modern Art of Jazz (Dawn, reissued a.o. as "One to Blow on" on Biograph and Meteor) Zoot Sims Goes to Jazzville (Dawn, reisued a.o. as "The Big Stampede" on Biograph) Zoot Sims plays Foru Altos (ABC, reissued on MCA Impulse) Zoot Sims Plays Alto, Tenor and Baritone (ABC) Zoot! (Riverside/OJC) Zoot (Cadet) Down Home (Bethlehem) His collaborations with Al Cohn are also enjoyable throughout: From A to Z (RCA) Al and Zoot (Coral/Jasmine) You 'n' Me (Mercury) I've also heard nothing but praise about most of his 70s recordings for the Pablo label. Enjoy!