Rabshakeh

Which ones in particular?

They all regularly play on each others' records: no surprise to see Lockjaw, Jacquet and Ben Webster getting co billing.

Jan Garbarek - Dis (ECM, 1977)

I think my favourites are these: Illinois Jacquet - Bottoms Up and Arnett Cobb - Blow, Arnett Blow I guess the Jacques/Cobbs and the Lockjaws/Griffins are close cousins of the musicians in this thread to the extent that it might make more sense to see them as the same thing, perhaps targeted at different age groups. Thank you everyone for the Byas and Eldridge recommendations too.

I started listening to jazz long after the controversies that this bunch brought up had already ceased to be live debates, and after the critical consensus was formed that bop disappeared in 1970 (the widely accepted Red Clay End Point thesis). I think that before I started to investigate for myself, I had assumed that the reason why Marsalis was famous was because he had been in some way responsible for bringing back the sort of high quality bop that the punters supposedly craved. Once you become aware of the very active and impressive bop ecosystems of the 1970s before the bop revival and then the very successful and popular work from the revival's early stages (e.g. VSOP, Dexter Gordon, etc.), all of which preceded Marsalis, the continuing critical focus on the controversy over the Young Lions, even once the marketing budgets had stopped flowing, starts looking weirder. I had been wondering whether I had missed some gems, but it really doesn't appear so. Bottom line: to me, this really does not appear in retrospect to have been a particularly strong period in the history of post-1970 bop music, even if one narrowly focuses on the most conservative side of post-1970 bop.

Over the last year or so I've listened to most of the albums in this thread a couple of times. I have to say that it's surprising how comparatively low the hit rate is for the core "Young Lion" movement. Perhaps other than two obvious Marsalises, and Harrison / Blanchard, there's very little I'll be revisiting. Once you get to the slightly later cohorts like Hargrove, Payton or Carter, or even later with pure genre players like Eric Alexander, the records really improve in quality. I shouldn't be surprised, given the very lukewarm feeling in the (very helpful) responses to the thread. But it is still weird how poorly these records compare to even chronologically adjacent traditionalist bop records by other younger musicians from the late 70s (e.g. Ricky Ford or the musicians in Steps) or mid to late 90s (e.g. the 3 mentioned above), let alone the slightly older cohort of bop players like Woody Shaw or Billy Harper. Presumably dry production and inexperienced players aren't a great combo, and that's most of what's to blame, but even then...

What are these Definitive Black & Blue Sessions? Is there a connection to the Black & Blue label? I've had a quick good and it's not clear.

These are great.

This is a comment from a long time ago, but does anyone know to what it refers? I have the record and found the liner notes odd in their emphasis on the opposition between the approaches of the two players.

Thaaaat's the one.

That new reissue of Proceed With Caution is also good. Great cover too. I'm a big fan of the Franklins, which i think are really good. Other than that, I am with @Pim on the Black Jazz releases. Solid interesting stuff that I don't regret putting on, but it doesn't grab me in the same way. Tribe on the other hand...

Eddie Condon - Town Hall Concerts Vol 1

Is Stan Getz Plays with his son? I bought that when my first was born, and I still get silly and sentimental every time I look at the record cover.

Are there any Roy Eldridge or Don Byas LPs from this period that anyone really enjoys, by the way?

The Ponderer is my favourite of his leader records, by quite a long way.

Is this the new one? How is it? It's getting pushed on social media a fair bit.

It’s a big European art festival. Well regarded and serious. Really more about the Art than the buyers or tourists. It has lots of performance art and multimedia. I assume my wife meant that it sounds like a recording of a performance art piece, which I guess it does, particularly the bits with the high pitched squeals and the nervous vocal chattering. Obviously Lee preceded the codification and institutionalisation of that style and has a lot more to offer than just that. I think that the comment was meant in the spirit of gentle fun. Like I said, I was allowed to listen to the second side too. Ditto. Weird things happen on here. Small discussions or posts have a tendency to completely flip my listening habits or open up new areas that I generally hadn’t thought about exploring (most recently, I’ve spent a fortnight listening almost solely to swing music - no way I could have foreseen that).

Thanks. I'll give them a listen.

Soulfulness Lee has mountains of. A lovely late summer night feel too, which is definitely not what what I associate with the area. Tippetts I like a lot. Who is Uschi Bruning? I don't know his/her work at all. One thing about these records is that they always have the most incredibly tempting line ups. That's part of the marketing strategy I guess (Mr. Granz at work), but it works, since these were often musicians who had come up when compatibility was a key skill for a working musician.

I struggle with avant warbling, but enjoy Lee much more than Maggie Nichols or Patty Waters (despite a long and personal relationship with Sings). It's an X factor thing: Lee is just much warmer and has less of the proto-arts institution feel that I think Mrs R is picking up on.

The toast of the Biennale.

Mary Lou Williams - Zodiac Suite First time I'd listened to this. It reminds me a lot of John Fahey work 25 years later in its mix of roots and classical modernism. I wonder whether Fahey knew the record.

I couldn’t find a good response at all. She’s right. Still a great record.

Is this good? His solo on the Rich is incredible but I otherwise don’t know him.

Such hardship... I feel like there's so much Crawford that I don't know.