clifford_thornton

No. One can create valuable, compelling and spirited music that is in the tradition of what came before while not being beholden to it. That can occur without the bells and whistles of "newness" (that rarely we hear until much, much later). Here's a review of the new release by the Empty Cage Quartet that I wrote. It's an excellent little record that may not be "jazz' Great Savior" but it proves that that really is not the point. (Review reprinted from Bagatellen).

This thread has certainly inspired me to put the film (and its bonus disc) in the Netflix queue. I look forward to checking it out, and hearing the music.

Well, the banned are certainly a curious lot, so I guess they get stars for uh, "effort."

Yes, there is a reason Val Wilmer titled her book so: it is as serious as your life. I'm going to disagree. Artists wish that jazz or popular culture mattered as much as politics, but that doesn't make it so. It depends on whether you consider jazz analogous to art or to pop culture. I spend time with a Bill Dixon or a Lee Morgan record like I do with a Barnett Newman painting, not like I do watching Talladega Nights.

I don't think Clem or Sangry or Allen (well, maybe Allen) are saying jazz as a whole is "boring." I think that they are saying that certain approaches aren't that compelling and are getting maybe more positive verbiage at the expense of, you know, stuff that's got more conviction to it. But you also gotta remember that those guys (and a lot of others here) have been listening to (and in some cases, playing or recording) this music longer than some others of us have been alive or at least following jazz. If I had been, you know, buying Coltrane LPs when they came out, would I be paying any attention to Vandermark? Probably not. That's not to say KV doesn't have conviction or can't play, it's just that he's certainly another notch from where somebody like Coltrane was (duh). And the scene now is pretty goddamn different. I mean, we work with what we got - and though I would've enjoyed living back in "the day" (some aspects of it anyway), I am perfectly happy experiencing the life I've experienced. It just happens to be a more fragmented culture and jazz is, well, clearly in a different state than 40 years ago. I would not say it's broken, though.

I like the later Lee stuff. Would be interested in checking out that Fresh Sound CD, even if it is, you know...

Yes, there is a reason Val Wilmer titled her book so: it is as serious as your life.

Thanks for the info - too bad indeed about Henderson. Might be time to give those three a call...

I'm quite sure Hiroshi Yamamoto went into academia and left music. Kinda like Steve Immerwahr of Codeine. And we wonder why... It's funny, I was just talking to somebody today about Bill Dixon (a living Giant) and the new album, which I like a lot, that's on Thrill Jockey (irrelevant mega-"indie" if there ever was one). I mean, even they are not willing to put advertising dough behind what's probably one of maybe two quite significant releases on the damn label... so in this climate, it's quite easy to see how the bottom line is really just it - the bottom line. And just ask Jim or Randy how much money they still owe on the Big O records - a guy like Josh Redman is probably doing okay in a middle-class way, but I can't imagine that even he is immune to lack of promotion/sales/marketing threats that, in some ways, seem to drive the industry. (lucky for Vandermark, his wife is fairly well-off) I mean, the best stuff is usually found in the margins, but living and making a living there sure ain't easy.

Curious connection, I hadn't thought of that. Think I need to spend more time with Phineas Newborn records. He was someone I always "meant" to check into more deeply... Screaming Life of 30 Seconds Over Tokyo, CT

They may not sound alike, but they're both into the hipster-commercial bag too much for my mirror, that is for sure. And Ethan Iverson's attitude is a fair shake better, to put it mildly...

He's a giant that I'm glad is still with us. I had some fine times at the old Velvet ca. 2001-2003 when I lived in Chicago. Great to see him play, but somehow I always got a kick out of him watching from the bar when it was somebody else's turn to raise the bandstand that night.

Well, some of us on the board may still be shitting diapers...

Do you know if Moore is still alive? Or for that matter, Leon Henderson? (Sidenote - Sunny Murray says that Jack Graham, an altoist who played in the Swing Unit on their ESP date, was a cousin of Joe and Leon. Interesting trivia.)

Yeah, FUCK Mehldau. Mehldau --> The Bad Plus --> ???

I remember reading in some of Leroi's writings that Charles Moore was in New York for a while in the mid-60s and worked with Marion Brown, among others. Can anybody confirm this?

Well, I was born in 1977 and didn't really start "hearing" things until the 1990s. That said, much of the music I was exposed to at that time - live or on record - has not worn quite as well for me as that from other times, which I never got to experience when it was "fresh." I've never quite understood why it's been like that for me. Though I think what's important pretty much everywhere is being able to find the good and the intent in a lot of things and if you can get that spirit, that's 99% of it right there. (Shit, I'm starting to sound like JS here!)

You mention the Wynton thing, which is just one of the tacks that's got me more curious in investigating the scene(s) of the '80s, jazz-wise. I'm a child of that decade, and my jazz listening seems to leave out that decade, concentrating either on '60s/'70s or '90s-now. Thing is, I dig a lot of rock that was going on in the '80s - punk/post-punk, no wave, that sorta shit - so it looks like my next step is to hit more of the jazz from that period. The Cadence, Nessa, and Silkheart trees seem to be good for barking up on solid jazz/improv from the '80s, but recommendations are always welcome!

Yeah, I never got too into the CTI/Columbia "fusion" sides upon hearing them (albeit much, much farther after the fact). That said, the version of "Spain" posted here is really solid, well-executed and fun to listen to. Ya gotta tip yr hat to cats who were finding their "thing" and doing it well, even if the results aren't always your cup of tea.

I mean, there's really so much there that one would have to know your tastes like you do to make recommendations. I have a soft spot for free jazz and "improvised music," and there was a lot of really fascinating shit going on in a diverse, worldwide arena just dealing with the "outside." Some of this was by musicians who came up a little earlier, in the '60s, while a lot of it was from cats who really broke onto the scene later. Of course, without Coltrane alive, things really busted open (in both positive and negative ways) for American saxophonists. I mean, part of it is that things blew up in the '60s, musically, so people spent the '70s putting it back together in some really interesting ways. (I might be paraphrasing Steve Lacy, Burton Greene or Kent Carter there) So, not knowing really what you like, I'll just suggest a few of the myrad people/bands that I like who were active in the '70s: Steve Lacy Frank Wright/Noah Howard SUN RA The Jazz Composers' Orchestra series of LPs (Grachan Moncur III, Clifford Thornton, Roswell Rudd, Don Cherry [tho the 1st of the series was cut in '68]) Loft dudes: Frank Lowe, Charles Tyler, Baikaida Carroll, The Revolutionary Ensemble, Charles Brackeen, etc. The World Saxophone Quartet (and the bands of the participants: David Murray, Julius Hemphill, Oliver Lake, Hamiet Bluiett) The Art Ensemble of Chicago (and the bands of the participants, esp. Roscoe Mitchell and Lester Bowie) ANTHONY BRAXTON!!! (+ Muhal, Threadgill, Leo Smith, other AACM figures) Pharoah Sanders, McCoy Tyner, Alice Coltrane and that crew John Surman - esp. The Trio w/ records on Dawn, Ogun, JG... Keith Tippett Derek Bailey, John Stevens/SME, Evan Parker, Tony Oxley, the Bead Records scene Graham Collier/Harry Beckett Peter Brotzmann + the FMP scene Willem Breuker; the Instant Composers' Pool (tho I think the best Dutch jazz is from the late '60s) Albert Mangelsdorff Johnny Dyani Chris McGregor and The Brotherhood of Breath (and participants with recordings on Ogun and Cadillac) The Soft Machine (+ recs by Elton Dean and Hugh Hopper) Don Cherry, Ornette, Cecil Taylor (had a really hot band in the latter part of the decade w/ Lyons, Sirone, Ramsey Ameen and Shannon Jackson) Eje Thelin, Joachim Kuhn, Rolf Kuhn and the "free fusion" scene The Norwegians: Terje Rypdal, Jan Garbarek, Arild Andersen, etc. Japan: Yosuke Yamashita, Masahiko Sato, Masahiko Togashi, and "out" cats like Kaoru Abe, Mototeru Takagi, Masayuki Takayanagi, etc.

Marion Brown - Juba-Lee - (Fontana Dutch orig)

Thanks for posting all this stuff, JS (and enjoying Parkertown's contrib as well) - Not sure how I feel about the Rollins/McCoy duo... just not sure.

I'd clean your cat's teeth for like $15. But then, I'm not what you'd call a "dentist."

Would Monk have hired Charlie Rouse in 1957? Not if Johnny Griffin were available; otherwise, quite possibly. I was looking at the liners to Just Wailin' (Rouse, Mann, Waldron, etc., 1958 I think) today and it was mentioned that Rouse had already played with Monk at that point, though I believe it would've only been a few gigs. Can't add much to the discussion as, I've heard so little of Josh Redman's work I can't even remember what he sounded like. His dad sure was a motherfucker, though.

You know, years ago I was given for free NM original copies of Lloyd's Atlantics and one on Columbia. I scanned through them and was underwhelmed, so I sold them. Wish I had actually "lived" with them for a bit, even though he's still not among the tenor players I enjoy the most. Motian is a player who always makes me happy he's there - thanks for posting this.