clifford_thornton

You will learn that chewy is bizarre and off-the-cuff. Don't take it personally. You may, in fact, learn to love him as though he were your own brother, as I have!

The racial divide... Hmm. Never thought about that!

Yeah, but Bill Hardman's ECM session is a killer...

For the two BOB studio LPs that I have - both on RCA - I can agree with you that the lushness of certain pieces is a value that one rarely hears on the live recordings. For my money (and personal taste), it's the ragged energy, fire and swing of the band that is most important, and that's why I dig those Cuneiforms. I'm a simple man, with simple tastes!

Very true. The Fontana, first Impulse and first ESP are almost uncharacteristic in some ways.

I was on the BNBB under a different name, then briefly AAJ. I can't remember how I found this one - maybe Brandon Burke? Anyway, it's the only one I pay attention to!

The CD contains extra material, I believe. That LP was originally issued as a single on the Vinyl label, as Live Big Band and Quartet. I've never owned this one.

Hans Dulfer - El Saxofon - (Catfish) w/ Wright, Few, Ali and a host of others...

I'm hit-or-miss w/r/t Collier, but for sure, the first several dates are particularly strong. I am very fond of the Fontanas, and will probably get this disc. Cuneiform is a rather admirable label, even if I don't always like what they choose to put out. The Brotherhood of Breath material they've issued is WAY stronger than any of that band's commercial LPs, or even the Oguns.

I tend, myself, to get pretty tired of the 60s-rehash thing, which has been de rigeur in some circles since, well, the '70s... and continues to this day. It's tough, though: as much as free-music or whatever is looked at as a necessity (rather than one option of many), it can easily become self-indulgent. As freedom is just one thing to pull from the bag, it seems to be much more viable - looking at people like Steve Lacy, the ICP, Mingus, it seems like that diversity is a crucial way of moving "forward." But then, those references are age-old... Sure, I don't think it's the same thing - Peter Brotzmann isn't even playing at all what he played 35 years ago - the reference is there, the "nod," the idea that he (and we) are part of this continuum of creative music. I don't want new beyond what's new to me; nor do I want old. I want now, however it comes to me. It just so happens that now is an Eternal Now, and can be actualized in music made at this moment, yesterday, 1995, 1982, 1970, 1949, or whenever. I'll quote Bill Dixon (from the liner notes to the '62 quartet w/ Shepp): "We do live in the present and tomorrow or for that matter, five minutes from now IS the future. And, for better or worse, the musical statements in this album do echo feelings that definitely did not start WITH the group and most certainly will not end with it." As for my uncle, I think he found Leo to be a great teacher. He was nurtured and enjoyed being part of the CMIF groups, and was encouraged to lead his own band from that well of musicians. Unfortunately, he didn't continue with it much past the early '80s (choosing instead to mine other artistic avenues). But Leo, Pavone, Naughton, Yohuru Ralph Williams and George Alford were all pretty important to his development at the time. He also participated in some Braxton and AEC workshops, I think, fwiw.

Don't think so. The Marmalade, from '69, is the same as the Polydor, with Wheeler, Watts, Bailey, Dyani, Stevens, Lemer(s), Maggie Nicols and a couple of other vocalists. I wasn't aware the Konnex CD had Lemer (don't have it).

I use "avant-garde" as a term like some use "jazz" - not because one necessarily wants to, but because parlance dictates its use to describe something. We all know what someone is talking about when they say "avant-garde jazz" or "free jazz," whether or not the term is in-itself appropriate or conveys what the music is really about. Sure, the new breed are coming out of their own perspectives and time as much as they are their teachers and record collections, but I think it's fair to look at players on the level of a continuum. Hence, I think it's valid to compare (if cursory - haven't spent a TON of time with her music) Matana and Arthur Jones. I don't think that such a historical outlook necessarily devalues Matana, or anybody. The music is moving, but as much as new forms are produced, one cannot (and perhaps should not) step outside of history's circles. A recognition of history will help to entrench forms more firmly (to paraphrase Clem... Greenberg) in the artistic continuum, even as the product seems as far away from Bird/Ornette/Cecil/Louis/Duke as one could get. My uncle told me of his first CMIF class with Leo Smith, maybe in the late '70s. Expecting to engage in free improvisation, he was surprised when Leo started the class by playing note-for-note Louis Armstrong cornet solos from early Hot Fives records. I'm not going to claim myself as an arbiter of tradition, but I do respect how important history can be to those making a contemporary mark. Also, do we feel that there is a lack of education/community in creative music? I mean, it seems that way to me, but may be more symptomatic of society than of the music itself. I don't know. Obviously, at one point the AACM, BAG, CMIF and other groups were very active on the music-education front. I think this was also true of some of the NY lofts of the '70s - community centers, education centers, and musical performance spaces. Hoping Sangry chimes in with a bit more "eloquent" thoughts on the matter.

There was an AAJ-NY Encore on Grossman about a year or so ago. At least back then he was still kicking it.

There is another thread about that very subject. Do a Wynton Marsalis or a Stanley Crouch search, and you'll hit it. No need to take Matana into that realm. Ornette is the Ornette of the avant-garde...

Not to be confused with this:

I didn't realize Oliv I and II were Ayler dedications... unless we're thinking of different LPs, as One-Two-Albert Ayler is another SME "tune" with vocals (from the BYG).

I can't believe I started this thread...

Unusual example of a Brit getting a session on ESP. Used to hear him a lot on BBC Jazz Club sessions back in the day - his wife Pepi was featured quite a lot too. Yeah, they seemed like an interesting pair. I wish he'd recorded more, though... just two examples, right? I've only heard of the ESP. Which is the other? He's on the SME on Marmalade, as is Pepi...

I am wasted and listening to Bilile Holiday with Crescent girl. I have had 1 1/2 margaritas, 3 1/2 Manhattans (Bulleit), and 5 pints of Kostritzer. See you all tomorrow... She can sing ...Crescent girl, that is!

Possibly, but I think he wasn't playing ball before then either...

Surprised you aren't into the Black Lion (Fontana) date... for me, that's one of the heaviest pianoless quartet dates of the '60s. Some people are just underrated, and who knows why.

Unusual example of a Brit getting a session on ESP. Used to hear him a lot on BBC Jazz Club sessions back in the day - his wife Pepi was featured quite a lot too. Yeah, they seemed like an interesting pair. I wish he'd recorded more, though... just two examples, right?

Who was ahead of them on the same curve? I ask to make sure I'm not missing anything from that period that I will want to go back and check into. You might want to check out that Jerry Hahn Quintet record that Arhoolie reissued on CD. I remember thinking it was solid, but don't have a reference copy of it now. As far as where it is on the "curve"...