Favorite John Patton

[Soul Stream]

I kept it to Blue Note only releases, but still had to leave off one, so I left off "That Certain Feeling" since many have never heard it. (But it is an UNBELIEVABLE record!)

BTW, Big John had two personal favorites among his many solo sessions, they were....

1. Along Came John

2. Oh Baby!

Edited May 8, 2003 by Soul Stream

[BruceH]

So far, it's unanimous! 100% of respondants vote for Along Came John. Can it be toppled?

WAIT! Now it's a dead heat. The crowd's going wild!

Edited May 8, 2003 by BruceH

[Big Al]

OH BABY, these polls have been a blast!

[Rooster_Ties]

For those looking for Boogaloo, here's a link that'll do a generic search for "john patton boogaloo" on eBay. This link should work, now, or a month from now, or a year from now.

eBay search for "john patton boogaloo"

And, here's a similar search on half.com, that should also work anytime in the near future...

half.com search for "john patton boogaloo"

I'm doing this as a public service to those unfortunate souls who don't have Patton's "Boogaloo", which I voted for as my all-time-favorite Patton release. I love the others too (I've heard nearly all of them, expect a couple on the forthcoming Mosaic Select), but I always seem to come back to "Boogaloo" as my favorite. It maybe isn't the greasiest of his output, but (for me anyway), it's the deepest.

Edited May 8, 2003 by Rooster_Ties

[Soul Stream]

"The Way I Feel" gets my vote. It's like picking your favorite child, but when push comes to shove it's the one I feel closest to. If you haven't heard it, it's usually on available through dustygroove. Or just wait for the Mosaic Select, since it's included on that.

[Man with the Golden Arm]

It'll be good to see what flushes out here. My toss up is between Along Came with a nudge to Oh, Baby!

As for those last two Ulmer sessions, can someone explain the merits of Marvin Cabell? I remember chucking those two back to the used record store almost immediately.

[Rooster_Ties]

I'm on the fence about Marvin Cabell as well, but occasionally I don't mind his severe intonation problems, or at least not as much as other times. (How's that for faint praise!!!!)

But seriously... Do I wish almost any other sax player was on those dates?? Probably yes. Do the dates still have some merit?? Absolutely!!! They're great in other ways!!!

And, truth be told, Marvin Cabell doesn't do any less for me than Don Wilkerson, although I do admit Wilkerson is a better player, technically. So I'm not saying Cabell is as good as Wilkerson, but rather that Cabell is at least as interesting (to me) as Wilkerson.

Sometimes If I have my 'Ornette' ears screwed on tight, I can find few things in Cabell's playing.

Edited May 8, 2003 by Rooster_Ties

[connoisseur series500]

This is a terrific poll.

My favorite is definitely the one not listed: THAT CERTAIN FEELING, but I understand the reasons for not including it in the poll. I had to settle for MEMPHIS TO NEW YORK SPIRIT. Patton and Ulmer are an unbeatable combination; perhaps even better than Patton and Green. Actually, all these are good, but we all know that!

[connoisseur series500]

In fact, If I were pressed to name one cd that is essential for Blue Note to reissue it would be THAT CERTAIN FEELING. This session is awesome. I'm tired of my cd-rom copy; I would like a copyrighted, remastered version. It's coming out on Mosaic, but I don't want to buy all the other stuff that I already have just to get this one.

I think Big John hit his peak from 1968-1971. All his stuff from this period is great.

[Soul Stream]

I have to agree. From 68 to 71, Big John was SMOKING. After that, the market for live jazz completely changed and John couldn't keep a band together. Even during this time, he expanded his concept to the point of losing many gigs. Most club owners wanted that funky organ thing. But at this point, John had Harold Alexander in his trio and was really stretching the boundaries live. It was the beginning of the end of the most productive period of his life.

[Ed S]

Let 'Em Roll rules. I'm a big fan of Boogaloo as well.

Edited May 8, 2003 by Ed Swinnich

[sidewinder]

'Boogaloo' has a fantastic groove, whatever AMG says. In that respect, its up there with the best of the Larry Youngs. A superb album all round...

[Rooster_Ties]

'Boogaloo' has a fantastic groove, whatever AMG says. In that respect, its up there with the best of the Larry Youngs. A superb album all round...

Yes, and speaking of Larry Young - I think Patton's "Boogaloo" is the closest Patton ever got to Larry Young's more 'outside' dates. Another reason it ("Boogaloo") is my favorite Patton date.

[JSngry]

...can someone explain the merits of Marvin Cabell?

HUGE fan of Cabell's work on ACCENT ON THE BLUES (my vote) here, based on the LP version (how I came to know this album back in ye olden daze), a bit less so of his other work w/Patton, including the AOTB CD bonus tracks.

Why? Easy - a totally natural swing, a totally natural tone, a complete lack of stress in his playing, some of the funkiest, bluesiest inflections heard on record for quite a while before or after, a sense of how to work within his technical limitations that bespeaks a rare musical intuitivity, a knack for hitting the right note at exactly the right time w/o even a hint of overplaying or doubt, and yet again, that TONE!

You can sum all that up in one word - soul. Marvin Cabell on AOTB is as soulful a motherfucker as I've heard amywhere. Them chops was still clearly in the developmental stage, but to carp about that technical shortcomings at the expense of overlooking such pure soulfullness on a John Patton record, of all places, is high irony indeed! Check out Marvin Cabell on "Villiage Lee" and tell me that this was NOT one HUGELY soulful motherfucker! Cat wrote some good tunes too, icing on the cake. Intonation probelms? Nah - there's a whole way of "hearing" that comes out sharp in terms of "conventional" pitch. I've long suspected it's a carryover from so-called "African temparment", but have no proof. Still, you hear it in a LOT of "unschooled" African-American music almost as a matter of course. There's more to it than so-called "bad intonation, of this I'm sure.

Besides, America used to be full of Marvin Cabells - brothers who came up learning the music on the street and in the clubs and who often had their souls together a LOT more than their chops. Some went on ahead and made up the difference, some KINDA did, and some never did, but continue(d) to play anyway, just because. The 60s & 70s found so many guys playing in R&B horn sections on and off the road going through exactly this process, and so did the local organ combos, while they existed. Most of them never got anything as "high profile" as a Blue Note date (although John Manning did), but Lord knows they were out there, moreso than many of us might realize, propulgating the sound of the soul of the street.

Marvin Cabell, I suppose, is one of those guys you either get right away or never do, and there's no real "right answer". But I dug him the first time I heard him, just as I did ACCENT ON THE BLUES. We used to get REALLY stoned and listen to BN sides on a regular basis back in them days, and AOTB was always a fave for that deep, DEEP groove, the way Cabell rode it with such confidient, unstudied nonchalance, and for Leroy Williams unformed yet undeniable hipness. And, of course, Patton his ownself. Many years have passed, and the system is relatively toxin-free these days, but it's an album that STILL gets me high, and Marvin Cabell is still one of the major reasons.

This probably TRULY explains nothing, but there it is anyway!

[Soul Stream]

Thanks for the 2 cents Jim. Once again you put into words my exact thoughts. I've always been a HUGE Cabell fan. Not to mention he wrote some great fucking tunes on those Patton sessions (Dragon Slayer, The Mandingo, Captain Nasty, Village Lee, Lite Hit....those are FUCKING GREAT!!). He and Patton were very tight and has been in close contact with John's wife since his passing. A real soulful cat who had a lot of musical empathy and respect for Patton and it comes through on Accent loud and clear. Lite Hit is one of the best organ tunes EVER in my opinion.

Matter of fact I asked John about LITE HIT in particular. He said Marvin had that melodic line going in the studio, just playing it while warming up, ect. It was John who suggested making a tune out of it, they made it AABA with Patton suggesting they go up a minor 3rd for the B section. A nice twist on the "So What" formula. Great shit.

Accent On The Blues is WAY up on my Patton list. I love that record.

I also think Cabell MORE than holds his own against George Coleman on the "Memphis To NY Spirit" CD.

Just another reason why it might be worth giving him a second chance if you don't really dig Marvin.

[Man with the Golden Arm]

...can someone explain the merits of Marvin Cabell?

HUGE fan of Cabell's work on ACCENT ON THE BLUES

Marvin Cabell, I suppose, is one of those guys you either get right away or never do, and there's no real "right answer". But I dug him the first time I heard him, just as I did ACCENT ON THE BLUES. We used to get REALLY stoned and listen to BN sides on a regular basis back in them days, and AOTB was always a fave for that deep, DEEP groove, the way Cabell rode it with such confidient, unstudied nonchalance, and for Leroy Williams unformed yet undeniable hipness. And, of course, Patton his ownself. Many years have passed, and the system is relatively toxin-free these days, but it's an album that STILL gets me high, and Marvin Cabell is still one of the major reasons.

This probably TRULY explains nothing, but there it is anyway!

Sure wish I'd spent my time back in the day wrapping ears around this kind of stuff. It's frightening to think of the music I wasted my lobes and the buzz on. As always your insight's make one take notice. Thanks. B)

[JohnS]

"Accent On the Blues", Patton, Kabell, Fantastic!

Edited May 9, 2003 by JohnS

[Clunky]

I will have to check out the Cabell sessions again.my very first post on the Old BNBB was about the scratchy sound he made. I got flamed instantly and life's not been the same since. I guess I can live with his sound but I am not wild about it or John Patton despite having all his recent BN CDs

[Man with the Golden Arm]

As serendipity has it I clicked over to eBay and MTNYS had 1m 28s left. So I'll give it a whirl again next week. I imagine AOTB is probably pretty hard to find.

And I just found out that The Shirelle's "Big John" was a co-pen of Patton? Is that so??

[bertrand]

Patton copyrighted a few tunes (with some co-authors) that he told me were written for groups such as the Shirelles (don't know if he mentioned them explicitely).

I'm pretty sure there was one called 'Big John'. Isn't there also a piece with that title on the much-maligned Blues For Lou Grant Green CD? If so, is it the same piece as the Shirelles'?

You've really piques my curiosity. Next time I'm at the Library of Congress for a longer stay (which may not be until July), I will try to compare the copyrighted 'Big John' with the one on Blues For Lou. Since Patton resurrected 'Personality' for this date as well, it's not impossible that it's the Shirelles tune.

Of course, I've never heard the Shirelles tune...

Bertrand.

Edited May 9, 2003 by bertrand

[connoisseur series500]

...can someone explain the merits of Marvin Cabell?

HUGE fan of Cabell's work on ACCENT ON THE BLUES (my vote) here, based on the LP version (how I came to know this album back in ye olden daze), a bit less so of his other work w/Patton, including the AOTB CD bonus tracks.

Why? Easy - a totally natural swing, a totally natural tone, a complete lack of stress in his playing, some of the funkiest, bluesiest inflections heard on record for quite a while before or after, a sense of how to work within his technical limitations that bespeaks a rare musical intuitivity, a knack for hitting the right note at exactly the right time w/o even a hint of overplaying or doubt, and yet again, that TONE!

You can sum all that up in one word - soul. Marvin Cabell on AOTB is as soulful a motherfucker as I've heard amywhere. Them chops was still clearly in the developmental stage, but to carp about that technical shortcomings at the expense of overlooking such pure soulfullness on a John Patton record, of all places, is high irony indeed! Check out Marvin Cabell on "Villiage Lee" and tell me that this was NOT one HUGELY soulful motherfucker! Cat wrote some good tunes too, icing on the cake. Intonation probelms? Nah - there's a whole way of "hearing" that comes out sharp in terms of "conventional" pitch. I've long suspected it's a carryover from so-called "African temparment", but have no proof. Still, you hear it in a LOT of "unschooled" African-American music almost as a matter of course. There's more to it than so-called "bad intonation, of this I'm sure.

Besides, America used to be full of Marvin Cabells - brothers who came up learning the music on the street and in the clubs and who often had their souls together a LOT more than their chops. Some went on ahead and made up the difference, some KINDA did, and some never did, but continue(d) to play anyway, just because. The 60s & 70s found so many guys playing in R&B horn sections on and off the road going through exactly this process, and so did the local organ combos, while they existed. Most of them never got anything as "high profile" as a Blue Note date (although John Manning did), but Lord knows they were out there, moreso than many of us might realize, propulgating the sound of the soul of the street.

Marvin Cabell, I suppose, is one of those guys you either get right away or never do, and there's no real "right answer". But I dug him the first time I heard him, just as I did ACCENT ON THE BLUES. We used to get REALLY stoned and listen to BN sides on a regular basis back in them days, and AOTB was always a fave for that deep, DEEP groove, the way Cabell rode it with such confidient, unstudied nonchalance, and for Leroy Williams unformed yet undeniable hipness. And, of course, Patton his ownself. Many years have passed, and the system is relatively toxin-free these days, but it's an album that STILL gets me high, and Marvin Cabell is still one of the major reasons.

This probably TRULY explains nothing, but there it is anyway!

Great analysis Jim, even if we have to clean our ears out afterwards!!

[Man with the Golden Arm]

ARTIST: SHIRELLES, THE

TITLE: BIG JOHN

ALBUM: BABY IT'S YOU

WRITER: A. SOMMERS/J. PATTON

"(big john, big john)

big john, won't you come on home

ain't you gonna marry me

my folks all wanna know

when the weddin's gonna be

they're makin' plans, shakin' hands

been waitin' so long

there's somethin' goin' wrong

big john, if you don't come home

i'm gonna have to leave this place

my folks know you've jilted me

i'm ashamed to show my face

they're makin' plans, shakin' hands

been waitin' so long

there's somethin' goin' wrong

(bridge)

they all told me 'bout the things you do

if what they told me is true

they all said that i'd soon find out

i'm wastin' my kisses on you

(instrumental)

there's somethin' goin' wrong

(repeat bridge, then verse 2)

(big john)

been waitin' so long

(big john)

there's somethin' goin' wrong

(big john)

...and fade"

[bertrand]

Based on the lyrics, that's the tune that is copyrighted.

Now if I can hear what it sounds like, and compare it to the piece on Blues For Lou, we will know for sure that it is indeed the same John Patton.

Thanks!

Bertrand.

[Guest akanalog]

I like "Got a Good Thing Goin On" the best though I feel Patton is kind of overrated in general. He never seems to get as out there to me as people seem to think. And he seems to recycle these annoying little riffs a lot on many of his later albums. I was especially disappointed in the Mavin Cabell sessions which I have always felt are missing some sort of spark and should have been a lot more interesting to listen to. I like "Boogaloo" and "Understanding" a bit better but they are not amazing albums-the drumming and sax playing make these albums more enjoyable for me, though. I understand the Cabell sessions were not trying to be grooving, but they are way too loose for me. It just sounds like the musicians weren't connecting very well which is too bad since the songwriting is interesting. I was especially disappointed in Ulmer's contributions. I thought he would add something interesting to the mix but he is barely there to my ears. I remember reading in the liner notes to one of these albums about a trio of Patton, Pharoah Sanders and someone...maybe George Edward Brown..on drums. I think they were together through 1969 or something. That would be interesting to hear. And didn't Patton jam with Sun Ra? I thought that was part of how he got his reputation for being a little more out there than the standard Blue Note organist. Anyway, "Got a Good Thing.." is on right now and actually gets pretty deep to me. This albums has a great groove and I really like the instrumentation of organ, guitar, drums and percussion.

[marcoliv]

Hi!

i´m alone on an island listening "UNDERSTANDING"...

peace

Marcus Oliveira