Could this be the fate of the new BNBB?

[White Lightning]

Dear Neon,

In these past few day you have shown a real noble character.

You have demonstrated a fine ability to forgive and forget even racist people.

You were willing to give a second chance even to those who are violent in nature.

You have shown real character standing for what you think is right, even if that associates you, your site and your beloved NJ with scums.

You've endorsed some sort of affirmative action even to those who had already revealed their true evil traits in public without even showing any remorse to these conducts.

For all of that - I salute you for being a true human rights and civil liberties protector.

If only more humans were like you... The world would be a better place.

(for WASPs)

[Jazzmoose]

May I be forgiven if I just don't give a rat's ass about the Norah Jones Board? Sorry, but it's just a silly fanboy board anyway; I just can't seem to get worked up over it. Admittedly, anything that has even passing affiliation with Bob Jones U. gets put on my shit list (hey; good news, neon! You're in the company of the President! ), but if they want to use emotionally retarded goofballs as moderators, I understand. Who else would be interested?

(I know this sounds like a slam neon; sorry...I just can't relate to fawning fan boards of a single artist. Much as I love Jackie McLean's music as an example, I really wouldn't want to spend all day talking about how he's like, hellacool, ya know?)

[catesta]

Much as I love Jackie McLean's music as an example, I really wouldn't want to spend all day talking about how he's like, hellacool, ya know?)

Hmmmmm...., The Unofficial Jackie McLean Site....

Moose, what do you think Jackie's favorite color is?

[Joe G]

For the love of GOD!!! Make it stop!

[Jazzmoose]

Come on, Joe...just one more wafer thin post...

[7/4]

May I be forgiven if I just don't give a rat's ass about the Norah Jones Board?  Sorry, but it's just a silly fanboy board anyway; I just can't seem to get worked up over it.  Admittedly, anything that has even passing affiliation with Bob Jones U. gets put on my shit list (hey; good news, neon!  You're in the company of the President! ), but if they want to use emotionally retarded goofballs as moderators, I understand.  Who else would be interested?

I don't care either, as long as some emotionally unbalanced goofball from the NJ board isn't threating us in various ways. That was the problem!

Edited May 28, 2003 by 7/4

[catesta]

Musicboy changed his avatar.

Notice the smiley face is not wearing a shirt.

[White Lightning]

Moose, what do you think Jackie's favorite color is?

I can't say, but one thing I know - God's favorite color os WHITE

[Jazzmoose]

I don't care either, as long as some emotionally unbalanced goofball from the NJ board threating us in various ways. That was the problem!

Aw, I've been threatened on the internet by more unbalanced, goofier unbalanced goofballs than muzakpunk before; I don't even pay attention to them anymore...

[catesta]

Aw, I've been threatened on the internet by more unbalanced, goofier unbalanced goofballs than muzakpunk before; I don't even pay attention to them anymore...

Please see soulstation1's KFC thread.

[Jim Alfredson]

What Neon does with his own board is his business. We can't tell him how to run it, who to accept as a member, moderator, or whatever. That was the thing that got this ball rolling in the first place. Musicboy wanted to tell me how to run my board. We shouldn't try the same tactics here. It's none of your business. If you don't like how the board is run, don't go there.

[Kevin Bresnahan]

FWIW, Tom Evered of Blue Note Records knows of the moderators affiliation with the Bob Jones University and he was well aware of the problem that link is to Norah Jones.

Neon, I think I am going to make another call just to let Tom know that you renegged and reinstated musicboy. I had mentioned the moderator with the Jones link but gave you a good word based on your actions here. Obviously, I jumped the gun. I hope you'll be hearing from Norah's record label soon.

Later,

Kevin

[Guest Mnytime]

What Neon does with his own board is his business. We can't tell him how to run it, who to accept as a member, moderator, or whatever. That was the thing that got this ball rolling in the first place. Musicboy wanted to tell me how to run my board. We shouldn't try the same tactics here. It's none of your business. If you don't like how the board is run, don't go there.

Of course you’re correct. But when he comes over here to tell us how he has made all his moderators agree to the statement he posted here while at the same time has a Moderator that supports Bob Jones U. I just find it a bit hypocritical.

What I also find upsetting beside what I already said earlier is that MusicBoy's reinstatement did not at least involve his having to come here and apologize for his behavior to you and the others. You would think that at the very least it would have been a requirement to being reinstated.

[catesta]

FWIW, Tom Evered of Blue Note Records knows of the moderators affiliation with the Bob Jones University and he was well aware of the problem that link is to Norah Jones.

Neon, I think I am going to make another call just to let Tom know that you renegged and reinstated musicboy. I had mentioned the moderator with the Jones link but gave you a good word based on your actions here. Obviously, I jumped the gun. I hope you'll be hearing from Norah's record label soon.

Later,

Kevin

Go Kevin, Go Kevin....

[Ed S]

I can't possibly imagine that once knowing of the Bob Jones thing, that Blue Note would not have immediately taken action. Norah is their shining star and I cannot imagine that they would allow that connection to continue. I hope they take the appropriate action - immediately.

I've said that I regret making that silly post on that board. Maybe it was a bad joke to start with but it essentially was harmless. For that, my name has been loosely linked to some type of child abuse and then repeatedly referenced in insulting remarks and finally we were all threatened with frivelous lawsuits, the band, the site and by association sitemembers were threatened with some form of black listing or smear campaign using pressure tactics most closely associated with racketeering and thuggery. For this the perpetrator is promoted from Moderator to Board Administrator?

Neon came across as a decent guy who was trying to do the right thing. Now that he has reversed his decision, seems like that whole site has a certain stench to it. Maybe the stench is emanating from the Bob Jones link, from the tacit endorsement of that site and the tacit endorsement of the tactics used by their now board administrator.

[Ed S]

Interesting that the last time I checked the NEWS at the Blue Note site there was a topic regarding the fact that Norah had written a post to her fans on the Norah Jones unofficial site. There was a link to the site as well and a characterization of the site as being "full of information and other fun stuff"

The news topic is now gone.

[7/4]

Interesting that the last time I checked the NEWS at the Blue Note site there was a topic regarding the fact that Norah had written a post to her fans on the Norah Jones unofficial site.  There was a link to the site as well and a characterization of the site as being "full of information and other fun stuff"

The news topic is now gone.

Yet her official site NorahJones.com still has a mention about the Norah Jones unofficial site.

[shawn·m]

Under the heading of "News," the BN link to NJ.info disappeared about the same time musicboy went postal. They also have yet to add NJ.info to their links page. It’s been a while since I looked over BN’s links, can anybody guess the six-degrees of separation to this image?

[JSngry]

Uh, is it by Billy Martin?

[Big Wheel]

The Bob Jones thing in a nutshell:

BJU never really hit the public radar screen (at least, not in urban areas so far as I know) until the campaign for the 2000 election, when George W. Bush gave a speech there. The university is essentially devoted to promulgating the hyper-evangelist brand of born-again Christianity that many in the extreme Right in America so love (of course, there's an undercurrent of complete intolerance for Judaism, Islam, and "Popery"--Catholicism). Everyone has to take religion classes every year, and the nature of those classes' material is in lockstep with the ideas of the school's president, Bob Jones III. You should see how their so called "biology" department tries to incorporate creationism! (See here) I'm not sure of the school's accreditation but there have been definite issues with federal funding in the past because of its overtly religious approach--lots of respected colleges in America were started by, and even are currently affiliated with, religious groups (like Emory University in Atlanta, a Methodist institution), but very few require their students to take religious courses of study.

The reason for all the uproar over the Bush visit was that BJU at the time did not allow interracial dating among its students. Supposedly, Bob Jones III said, that policy had to do not with any stance that any race is superior to another, but that in the Bible God simply decreed that the "one-world" principle was forbidden--that is, homogenization of races was a no-no because for one reason or another, God didn't want people to mix. I think this all has something to do with the separation of the races of the world at the Tower of Babel.

Here's a transcript of Bob Jones III's interview with Larry King on "Larry King Live."

Edited May 29, 2003 by Big Wheel

[Joe G]

Personally, I can't imagine why Norah or Blue Note would be at all concerned about that link, thrice removed as it is.

[Rooster_Ties]

Personally, I can't imagine why Norah or Blue Note would be at all concerned about that link, thrice removed as it is.

I agree.

Personally, I think we ought to just leave the Norah Jones board alone, and if they want some idiot like Musicboy on their board, then so be it. Maybe he'll cause some other big mess for Neon someday, but hey, that's not our problem.

I've stopped posting there, and aside from occasionally maybe checking the "Race Discussion" thread I started there, I probably won't post there ever again.

[Big Wheel]

I agree that the link is pretty far removed but IMO, the problem is not with the link, it's with the people. Norah Jones posts to norahjones.info, however infrequently. At least one of, and probably two of, the moderators at norahjones.info, even if not racist, supports an institution that is. Maybe they don't fully grasp what BJU is all about--they just admire it for being an explicitly "Christian" institution. But if you were a child of an interracial relationship, would you really want people with some kind of tie to these insitutions supporting you?

[Dan Gould]

Big Wheel only captures part of the Bob Jones story. Perhaps I misread his post, but to be sure, the University is indeed religious in nature and intent. And I'm not so sure that "very few" religious schools don't require religion classes. I'm guessing that Oral Roberts does and probably Liberty College (or whatever the name of Falwell's school is).

Anyway, the school was in the public eye way back in 1983 in a case that reached the Supreme Court. Here's a good summary of the background and issues, including a description of the school's attitudes, from Pearson/Prentice Hall:

Bob Jones University v. United States, 1983

Historical Background

State and federal laws sometimes come into conflict with religious practices, as Reynolds v. United States, 1879, the so-called "Mormon polygamy" case, clearly showed. When religious beliefs and practices protected by the 1st Amendment conflict with the law, which side should take precedence? In what situations does government have the authority to declare that religious institutions are not tax-exempt?

The composition of the Court that would consider these and other questions in Bob Jones University v. United States had not changed since the Island Trees decision. Chief Justice Burger presided, with Justice William J. Brennan, Jr. (1956) the senior member and Justice Sandra Day O'Connor (1981) the newest member.

Circumstances of the Case

This case concerned Bob Jones University, a Christian school located in Greenville, South Carolina. About half of the school's 5,000 students, from kindergarten through college and graduate school, were studying for the ministry or some other Christian service. As a private, religious school, Bob Jones University accepted no federal, State, or local funding. Nor, as a tax-exempt, charitable organization under Section 501©(3) of the Tax Code, did it pay any taxes. The school's administration believed that the Bible prohibited dancing, movies, jazz, and rock music, as well as interracial dating and marriage. These beliefs were enforced through a code of student conduct. No African Americans were admitted to Bob Jones University before 1971. Between 1971 and 1975, only married African American couples could be admitted. After 1975, African Americans could be admitted regardless of marital status, but the policy banning interracial dating and marriage was strictly enforced.

Meanwhile, the Internal Revenue Service (IRS) became part of a concerted effort to combat racial discrimination in schools throughout the country. The IRS determined that the Federal Government had established a "public policy" that prohibited the granting of any public subsidy to public or private educational institutions that practiced discrimination. In the 1970s, the IRS ruled that a private school could no longer be ruled a "charitable" organization unless its admissions and educational policies were nondiscriminatory. The tax-exempt status of discriminatory institutions would be revoked. Decisions by federal courts and federal courts of appeals upheld the IRS's policy.

Under this new interpretation of federal "public policy," the IRS revoked Bob Jones University's tax-exempt status. To recover its lost status, the university paid a $21 unemployment tax to the Federal Government and then sued, as a tax-exempt institution, to recover the money. The IRS responded with a bill for $490,000 in back taxes, which the agency said were owed from 1971 to 1975 when the university was not tax-exempt.

Constitutional Issues

The issue involved a clash between the 1st and 14th amendments. Does the 1st Amendment's Establishment Clause protect all church practices, making Bob Jones University tax-exempt even if its rules conflict with "public policy"? Should the 1st Amendment's Free Exercise Clause take precedence over the 14th Amendment's Equal Protection Clause? Does the 14th Amendment guarantee of due process prevent the IRS from depriving the university of property without a full hearing in a court of law?

Arguments

For Bob Jones University: The Establishment Clause prevents the state from favoring one church over another. By taking away the university's tax-exempt status, the Federal Government is favoring other churches over the Christian fundamentalism of the university. Moreover, the 1st Amendment's free exercise guarantee, a fundamental protection under U.S. law, should not be taken away under any circumstances.

By determining public policy, the IRS has illegally assumed the power of Congress. Furthermore, by its unilateral action the IRS has deprived citizens of property without being bound by the rules of a courtroom—a violation of the due process provisions of the 14th Amendment.

For the United States: By taking away the university's tax-exempt status, the government is endorsing a standard for admissions and education policies required to obtain tax-exempt status. The 14th Amendment guarantee of equal protection should take precedence over 1st Amendment rights in this case. Lower courts have repeatedly upheld the IRS's new interpretation of the tax code which requires that all tax-exempt organizations be "charitable," among other things. An organization cannot be considered "charitable" if it violates "public policy" by practicing racial discrimination. Moreover, the courts have repeatedly backed the IRS's power to make decisions and enforce tax codes without being bound by the rules of a formal court of law.

Decision and Rationale

The Court voted 8–1 to uphold the revocation of the tax-exempt status of Bob Jones University. Chief Justice Warren Burger, in his majority opinion, reaffirmed the Court's belief in interpretation. "It is a well-established canon of statutory construction that a court should go beyond the literal language of a statute if reliance on that language would defeat the plain purpose of the statute." In reviewing the IRS tax code, Burger found that the "intent" was for tax-exempt organizations to meet certain "common-law standards of charity—namely that an institution seeking tax-exempt status must serve a public purpose and not be contrary to public policy," emphasizing that U.S. public policy was one of nondiscrimination.

Burger next reviewed the long history during which Congress gave the IRS power to make decisions without a court proceeding. He concluded that in this case, the demands of the 14th Amendment superseded those of the 1st Amendment. Burger found the "governmental interest at stake" in the case—namely, "eradicating racial discrimination in education"—to be "compelling." He concluded that a compelling "governmental interest substantially outweighs whatever burden denial of tax benefits places on petitioners' exercise of their religious beliefs."

Questions for Discussion

Should the motivation for discrimination make any difference before the Court? The Court found that Bob Jones University was truly a "religious" school, and that its polices were motivated by a sincere interpretation of the Bible. In light of that fact, what is your opinion of the Court's decision?

Members of the Court sometimes favor one side of a particular issue because the alternative would be worse. Had the Court decided for Bob Jones University in this case, what alternative precedent would it have set? What would have been the consequences of that precedent? Given your conclusions regarding the alternative, what is your view of the Bob Jones decision?

[Big Wheel]

And I'm not so sure that "very few" religious schools don't require religion classes.  I'm guessing that Oral Roberts does and probably Liberty College (or whatever the name of Falwell's school is). 

My point was only that there are many, many schools in the US that have been created by religious orders (the Jesuits, the Methodists, the Puritans in the case of my school) that either have always been entirely secular or gradually accepted a secular approach to education--they aren't "religious schools" anymore. I admit to being on shaky ground with the federal funding/tax exempt issues--it was my impression that merely being a "religious school", not just practicing racial discrimination, meant that an institution wasn't eligible for federal money.

Edited May 29, 2003 by Big Wheel