blowin in from chicago Vol 2 in the 70s

[7/4]

Why would Ra prevent Gilmore from recording with other musicians?

Maybe Sun Ra thought that Gilmore was so important to the sound of his band that he didn't want anyone else using him?

Just a crazy thought...

[clifford_thornton]

Oh, was that what this thread was about?

[Hot Ptah]

I read that Clifford Brown had to sneak out to make his recordings in Paris while a member of Lionel Hampton's band, because Hampton had forbidden his musicians from any outside recording on the trip. I wonder if Sun Ra's prohibition of Gilmore doing outside work was all that unusual.

[Lazaro Vega]

Or maybe the band was busy enough touring and recording that Ra didn't want to change his schedule around Gilmore.

[David Ayers]

Well it's funny you should mention Ronald Firbank...

[clifford_thornton]

sunny murray-- whuh? doeesn't matter, unless someone tells me it DOES.

cecil-- makes him even MORE interesting, esp. once you start to take his talk abt dance & poetry-- take his own poetry-- seriously. at same time, we have to remember privacy-- & i mention primary so people HATE crouch even more than they love ct-- & what an avant-garde black man can hide, & what he can't.

Meant Ra, not Murray - I think Cecil is an extremely interesting individual, poetry included, but I just don't think his sexuality outweighs other aspects of his personality/art. That's what I'm afraid sometimes happens, same with Ra. There are so many other levels on which these people operate that one trumping another seems unfair. I would also never argue that music trumps all - certainly the temperament IS the music in so many ways.

I'm with you on the cultish aspect of Ra, though. I think that's pretty interesting, especially if one were to compare it to earlier big band touring/rehearsing/living practices.

[Hot Ptah]

It would be interesting to hear from some musicians who lived at the house whether it was cult-like, or more of a crash pad next to the rehearsal space for musicians who were not making much money and welcomed a cheap place to stay.

There were musicians who entered Sun Ra's orbit and did not stay in the house. For example, bassist Richard Davis played with him in the late 1940s and early 1950s, and again in the Sun Ra All Stars of the mid-1980s (on the Stars That Shine Darkly albums--Don Cherry, Lester Bowie, Marshall Allen, John Gilmore, Archie Shepp, Sun Ra, Richard Davis, Philly Joe Jones and Clifford Jarvis--I may have left some out). Richard never lived in the house as far as I know, although he spoke warmly of Sun Ra as a musician and as a wise, helpful person in the early 1950s.

Roy Haynes once mentioned in an interview that his son was a drummer with Sun Ra for a long time. I wonder who he was--sometimes the musicians with Sun Ra took on other names. Someone like Roy Haynes would probably have good insights into the Sun Ra house. I bet it would be difficult to get anyone to talk much about it, though.

[Lazaro Vega]

I've talked to Marshall Allen about it when he played live on Blue Lake with Henry Grimes -- all music. He said that was what they ate, drank, slept and lived. Music all the time. Which is one reason why the Arkestra could spontaneously create form as they did in "The Magic City," on in the continuous concerts they put on.

[chewy-chew-chew-bean-benitez]

you know who we shoukld email? those guys in SF who did all those extensive SUN RA RESEARCH interviews in the 80s......theyre on the web somewhere.....

[Niko]

just wanted to throw in that IMHO someone who claims to come from Saturn purposely directs some public interest to his life outside music (even if he really came from there or really believed he came from there: he must have known that in this world he would better have kept that as a secret if he had wanted people to concentrate exclusively on his music)... thus I think one can't really blame anyone for discussing his sexual preferences as well (this is different for Cecil Taylor)

(but although I believe the discussion is ok, I don't have anything to say in it )

[paul secor]

This thread has deteriorated into something out of the National Enquirer (if that rag is still in business) or the Star.

[Guest akanalog]

i don't see why people are getting scolded for asking questions here.

the original question by chewy chew chew was reasonable and it got a sort of over the top answer by someone purporting to have inside info.

this answer has lead to more questions which though can be taken in unhelpful and silly tangential directions, are valid questions as to what went on in that house/how sun ra viewed his musicians/why the musicians made so few outside recordings.

so i mean i think there are some valid questions which aren't dwelling on the sexuality issues for the wrong reasons but readers of this thread might just want a more clear view or a clearer answer of what the deal was as it relates to a musician and musicians we enjoy and respect. no reason not to be curious how they lived and interacted and created the music they did.

[clifford_thornton]

What's Clifford Jordan's preference?

[.:.impossible]

My version of Blowin' In From Chicago plays back mono, but I would guess right channel?

[randyhersom]

When I was at WRTI, Temple university's jazz station, a young man hung around the station a lot, and also started hanging at the Sun Ra house. He eventually got to sit in on a recording session. He reported that Sun Ra was gay, but that he was not influenced in any way to participate and did not. I chose not to believe that Sun Ra was gay at the time, and bought Swzed's interpretation of his sexuality when I later read the book. I bring this up only to refute the statement that you had to have a sexual relationship with Sun Ra to hang at the house. I still think it would be possible for someone to incorrectly interpret "not into women" as "gay".

I saw Sun Ra perform three times, including once where the entire band went out and hugged members of the audience while chanting. I can buy jealous and a little controlling, but I just can't buy the idea of widespread coercion as described by youmustbe.

Edited August 3, 2006 by randyhersom

[Hot Ptah]

I am not interested in the sexual issues, but I do think it is interesting that Sun Ra was able to keep a band together, both on the road and for recordings, for decades. Few bandleaders were able to do that from 1955-90. The fact that many band members lived in the same house may have had something to do with that, and that interests me. I doubt that the band members were sticking with Ra for some great amount of money, and none of them were getting very famous, even in the jazz world--so why did they stay in his band for so long?

These questions have been explored with Ellington, Kenton and others, and it is just as valid to ask them about Sun Ra, in my opinion. As there are virtually no big bands now with longevity, these questions are perhaps more interesting today than they would have been 40 years ago.

From what I have read, some of the leading musicians have claimed that Sun Ra's compositions and overall musical vision was so strong and interesting that they could not find musical satisfaction elsewhere. If that is the only answer, that would be fine. I suspect that there is something more to it, something compelling about Sun Ra's personality. Are the facets of his personality that kept the band together also involved in his forbidding Gilmore to do outside work? I find that interesting, because Gilmore deserved more exposure and it would have been very interesting to hear his contributions to other musical situations in the 1970s and 1980s. He was one of the leading tenor players on the scene then, in my opinion. What might he have done with McCoy Tyner or Cecil Taylor, for example.

Edited August 3, 2006 by Hot Ptah

[ep1str0phy]

the original question by chewy chew chew was reasonable and it got a sort of over the top answer by someone purporting to have inside info.

As valid as all these questions are--historically, sociologically, musicologically--it's shocking how few posts have acknowledged the apparent snarkiness of youmustbe's comments (where is that guy?).

[Hot Ptah]

chewy challenged him in a post to come forward and say how he knew about what he said. He has not come forward with any more posts. In my opinion, he should explain his sources of information.

[sidewinder]

It may seem a mundane explanation but maybe the reason all these guys stayed so long in the Sun Ra house was solely because of the strong sense of meaningful 'mission' in an unforgiving, generally hostile world that Sun Ra was able to instill. Anyone who has spent any time in the armed services will be able to understand that one.

[ep1str0phy]

chewy challenged him in a post to come forward and say how he knew about what he said. He has not come forward with any more posts. In my opinion, he should explain his sources of information.

I don't think there are any--just a little bit of mischief (well informed, apparently, by ill will). Regardless of Ra's sexual preference or the dyanmics of the Arkestra household, it's a helluva thing to get everyone at the level of tabloid hysteria. For that matter--any real information could at quite a bit to the understanding of the man's legacy (or, for that matter, the history of the 60's avant movement). It's nice to see, on the other hand, so many substantial and well considered comments in the wake of the youmustbe cherry bomb. Kudos, guys (no facetiousness).

Edited August 4, 2006 by ep1str0phy

[JSngry]

blowin in from chicago

In light of the direction all this has taken, that's just too funny!

[ep1str0phy]

It took me far too long to get that...

[.:.impossible]

I just wasn't going to go there...

[Hot Ptah]

Moving on, I wonder if Sun Ra was known to be authoritarian and controlling with his musicians, so that he would not have allowed Gilmore to record with others just for the sake of being in control.

I wrote a review for a Sun Ra concert for my college paper, and tried to talk to Arkestra members or Sun Ra himself before and after the concert. I was not allowed to do so. A non-musician spokesman was designated to take my questions and call me back with the answers. I recall that as I was milling around the near-backstage area, as close as I was allowed to get to backstage, before the concert, two Arkestra members were fearfully gulping down some booze. They were looking around in obvious discomfort as they did so. I asked them what was going on and they said that the booze helped them relax, to be able to perform, but that they were scared that Sun Ra would see them. These were two gray haired guys, and they were visibly anxious about it.

It reminded me of the descriptions of Vince Lombardi in Jerry Kramer's "Instant Replay", where offensive linemen would hide ice cream cones behind their backs if they thought that Vince was near.

Does anyone have any information about this topic?

[erhodes]

Moving on, I wonder if Sun Ra was known to be authoritarian and controlling with his musicians, so that he would not have allowed Gilmore to record with others just for the sake of being in control.

I wrote a review for a Sun Ra concert for my college paper, and tried to talk to Arkestra members or Sun Ra himself before and after the concert. I was not allowed to do so. A non-musician spokesman was designated to take my questions and call me back with the answers. I recall that as I was milling around the near-backstage area, as close as I was allowed to get to backstage, before the concert, two Arkestra members were fearfully gulping down some booze. They were looking around in obvious discomfort as they did so. I asked them what was going on and they said that the booze helped them relax, to be able to perform, but that they were scared that Sun Ra would see them. These were two gray haired guys, and they were visibly anxious about it.

It reminded me of the descriptions of Vince Lombardi in Jerry Kramer's "Instant Replay", where offensive linemen would hide ice cream cones behind their backs if they thought that Vince was near.

Does anyone have any information about this topic?

I've been lurking on this thread from the beginning...didn't have the energy to jump in...but I have a few thoughts. Would like to ask Hot Ptah first, though, if you were into Sun Ra enough to have wrote a college paper on him and if you have read Szwed, do you you still feel that this aspect of his behavior and that of members of the Arkestra need more clarification and explanation? Please take this question at face value. I can respond to you but I'd like to know if you think that Szwed, for instance, did not sufficiently explain Sun Ra in this regard.

Ed Rhodes