Herbie Hancock

[Degiorgio]

I have absolutely no interest in this music.

So, I'm an old fart for a bunch of you. 

If I want funk, I go for the blues.

Chuck - do you mean all of Herbie's 70's output or just the funky Headhunters and onwards stuff?

There is a world of difference between the Mwandishi band material (71-73) and the later albums. Not so much funk - but more a serious and highly evolved usage of electronics combined with world percussion and pretty avant-garde jazz.

Its a unique period - documented on other albums such as Eddie Henderson's 'Realization' and 'Inside Out' sessions for Capricorn, Julien Priester's ECM album 'Love Love', Bennie Maupin's ECM album 'Jewel and the Lotus' and Norman Connors first 3 albums for Cobblestone.

Very far removed from the fusion-funk of the mid-70's - this is ethereal stuff - a heady mixture of free-jazz, afro-centrism, new electronic musical technology and recording techniques.

The whole Mwandishi vibe lasted just 2 years - the reasons for Herbie abandoning it are told in his sleevenotes to the recent Headhunters CD remaster.

KD

[Chuck Nessa]

I have absolutely no interest in this music.

So, I'm an old fart for a bunch of you. 

If I want funk, I go for the blues.

Chuck - do you mean all of Herbie's 70's output or just the funky Headhunters and onwards stuff?

There is a world of difference between the Mwandishi band material (71-73) and the later albums. Not so much funk - but more a serious and highly evolved usage of electronics combined with world percussion and pretty avant-garde jazz.

Its a unique period - documented on other albums such as Eddie Henderson's 'Realization' and 'Inside Out' sessions for Capricorn, Julien Priester's ECM album 'Love Love', Bennie Maupin's ECM album 'Jewel and the Lotus' and Norman Connors first 3 albums for Cobblestone.

Very far removed from the fusion-funk of the mid-70's - this is ethereal stuff - a heady mixture of free-jazz, afro-centrism, new electronic musical technology and recording techniques.

The whole Mwandishi vibe lasted just 2 years - the reasons for Herbie abandoning it are told in his sleevenotes to the recent Headhunters CD remaster.

KD

You did not mention a single piece of music in my collection. Sorry.

PS: I have heard all this stuff - got promos of most of it and gave it away. Not proud, just factual.

[Degiorgio]

PS: I have heard all this stuff - got promos of most of it and gave it away. Not proud, just factual.

that's cool... I was 4-6 yrs old when these came out so its interesting for me to see how jazz fans received these albums at the time.

KD

[Rooster_Ties]

I have absolutely no interest in this music.

So, I'm an old fart for a bunch of you. 

If I want funk, I go for the blues.

Chuck - do you mean all of Herbie's 70's output or just the funky Headhunters and onwards stuff?

There is a world of difference between the Mwandishi band material (71-73) and the later albums. Not so much funk - but more a serious and highly evolved usage of electronics combined with world percussion and pretty avant-garde jazz.

Its a unique period - documented on other albums such as Eddie Henderson's 'Realization' and 'Inside Out' sessions for Capricorn, Julien Priester's ECM album 'Love Love', Bennie Maupin's ECM album 'Jewel and the Lotus' and Norman Connors first 3 albums for Cobblestone.

Very far removed from the fusion-funk of the mid-70's - this is ethereal stuff - a heady mixture of free-jazz, afro-centrism, new electronic musical technology and recording techniques.

The whole Mwandishi vibe lasted just 2 years - the reasons for Herbie abandoning it are told in his sleevenotes to the recent Headhunters CD remaster.

KD

You did not mention a single piece of music in my collection. Sorry.

PS: I have heard all this stuff - got promos of most of it and gave it away. Not proud, just factual.

While I generally like most of this material, I think the two Eddie Henderson dates on Capricorn are head and shoulders above the rest.

Both are available on one CD, though Dusty Groove is the only place I've ever seen it. Kinda pricy at $18.99, but worth every penny. They're out of stock on it at the moment, but keep your eyes out for it.

[Chuck Nessa]

While I generally like most of this material, I think the two Eddie Henderson dates on Capricorn are head and shoulders above the rest.

Of what?

[Rooster_Ties]

While I generally like most of this material, I think the two Eddie Henderson dates on Capricorn are head and shoulders above the rest.

Of what?

By "the rest", I meant the whole "Mwandishi"-related series of releases, by Herbie and others -- meaning the dates I have in bold in this quote (immediately below).

There is a world of difference between the Mwandishi band material (71-73) and the later albums. Not so much funk - but more a serious and highly evolved usage of electronics combined with world percussion and pretty avant-garde jazz.

Its a unique period - documented on other albums such as Eddie Henderson's 'Realization' and 'Inside Out' sessions for Capricorn, Julien Priester's ECM album 'Love Love', Bennie Maupin's ECM album 'Jewel and the Lotus' and Norman Connors first 3 albums for Cobblestone.

Very far removed from the fusion-funk of the mid-70's - this is ethereal stuff - a heady mixture of free-jazz, afro-centrism, new electronic musical technology and recording techniques.

The whole Mwandishi vibe lasted just 2 years - the reasons

I've never heard the Norman Connors albums listed above ("Norman Connors first 3 albums for Cobblestone"), so I can't speak about them.

In short, I think Eddie Henderson's two albums on Capricorn are significantly better, and have more focus (more "punch", as it were), than any of Herbie's own Mwandishi-related releases, or the other projects lead by the sidemen.

That said, I do still kinda like the others, but I don't pull them off the shelf nearly as much -- unlike the the two Henderson dates, which I've played dozens of times since I first got them about a year ago.

Edited March 29, 2005 by Rooster_Ties

[Chuck Nessa]

Oh!

[Rooster_Ties]

I've never heard the Norman Connors albums listed above ("Norman Connors first 3 albums for Cobblestone"), so I can't speak about them.

So, anybody, how are the Norman Connors dates??

Looks like only the first one ("Dance of Magic") has ever been released on CD, in 1995 (at least according to the AMG).

Edit: The line-up on the first one certainly looks good...

Edited March 29, 2005 by Rooster_Ties

[Chuck Nessa]

Had 'em, didn't much care for them. What did you expect.

[Chuck Nessa]

Edit: The line-up certainly looks good...

Do you really think so?

"Houston, we have a problem".

[marcello]

So, anybody, how are the Norman Connors dates??

Rooster: I have the Norman Connors - Dark Of Light, on vinyl, and I've got to say: it sucked then and I can guess it sucks now, also. It has all of the usual suspects on it. There are some good moments; but just that; moments.

Norman Connors : drums

Herbie Hancock : electric piano, acoustic piano

Eddie Henderson : trumpet

Carlos Garnett : tenor saxophone, soprano saxophone

Gary Bartz : alto saxophone

Art Webb : flute

Cecil McBee : bass

Buster Williams : bass (on 1)

Stanley Clarke : bass (on 3)

Onaje Allan Gumbs : acoustic piano (on 4)

Lawrence Killian : congas

Warren Smith : percussion

Ted Dunber : acoustic and electric guitar (on 1)

Elmer Gibson : electric piano (on 3)

Henry Palmer : percussion (on 3)

Gerald Roberts : percussion (on 3)

Alfred Williams : alto flute, bassoon (on 3)

chorus : Dee Dee Bridgewater, Ellen DeLeston,

Michael Brown

strings : Gail Dixon, Pat Dixon, Jerry Litte

TRACKS (total time 35:16) :

P.S. Mine has a different cover than this:

[Rooster_Ties]

Edit:  The line-up certainly looks good...

Do you really think so?

"Houston, we have a problem".

With all due respect, you're being a stick in the mud again, Chuck.

Herbie, Gary Bartz, Cecil McBee, Eddie Henderson, maybe Carlos Garnett (haven't heard enough Garnett to know how his track-record is, but I've liked what little I've heard).

Sure, Chuck, a line-up like this doesn't guarantee a good date. But if it's closer to either of Eddie Henderson's two Capricorn dates, then great!! -- I'll be all over it, first chance I get.

Or if it wanders around, more aimlessly, like (IMHO) Herbie's own Mwandishi-related dates (which are hit and miss for me), or Bennie Maupin's ECM date (which I was very disappointed in, when I finally got to hear it), then sure -- this Norman Connors date will be a dud.

But given the players and the time-period, I'm curious enough to ask about it.

Edit: My hopes for the Connors albums were pretty much limited to the first LP only. Experience has taught me that there was a pretty tiny window, in the early 70's, where this stuff really hung together pretty darn well. Further attempts beyond about 1973 or '74, have always seemed to fall flat. Whether that was the influence of outside forces (public tastes??), or exactly the cause was for this was -- I don't really know.

All I know is that those two Eddie Henderson dates totally kick ass. But even Henderson's own later dates (post-Capricorn), aren't as strong -- so whatever the reason, it affected Henderson too, and everyone else too, it would appear.

Edited March 29, 2005 by Rooster_Ties

[Degiorgio]

I've never heard the Norman Connors albums listed above ("Norman Connors first 3 albums for Cobblestone"), so I can't speak about them.

DARK OF LIGHT / DANCE OF MAGIC / LOVE FROM THE SUN: pretty much the same personnel as the Herbie/Henderson dates - including both of those, Billy Hart, Buster Williams plus non-Mwandishi members Stanley Clarke, Gary Bartz, Carlos Garnett, Dee Dee Bridgewater, etc. Less electronics (no Pat Gleeson) but plenty of Herbie's spacey-rhodes playing and afro-percussion... (Buddy Terry pulled a similar line-up for his "Pure Dynamite" set for Mainstream around the same time so that's kinda Mwandishi-related too although Kenny Barron is on keys not Herbie).

I guess the Henderson albums are more focused - but I think that's because they are not 15-20 minute side long compositions like much of Mwandishi, Crossings, Sextant, Love Love. Sleeping Giant and Wandering Spirit Song are heavy going but they don't sound like a ramblng mess - Herbie lets them stretch out over 20 minutes but they are still tightly arranged and focused IMO.

(The Mwandishi live dates I've heard do sound more 'rambling' I admit).

KD

[Degiorgio]

oops - posted that without seeing the above posts...

I LOVE the Norman Connors albums... don't get the nasty Buddah re-issues of the first 2 - get the nice laminated Cobblestone gatefold originals with beautiful session photo's on the inside.

I guess its rather pointless saying whether this is music is good or not - its all personal right?

I love this period in jazz. I also realise it will always divide jazz fans who did not like the move into electronic recording, the focus on exotic modes and afro-centric spirituality on these albums.

Reading old issues of DownBeat I can see just how some of these albums were truly hated by critics brought up on the bop/blues tradition. I can respect that opinion but they should also respect the opinion that for some this music was more interesting than hearing more "improv' over the changes".

KD

[Degiorgio]

But even Henderson's own later dates (post-Capricorn), aren't as strong -- so whatever the reason, it affected Henderson too, and everyone else too, it would appear.

Try and grab the recent Sony/Legacy remaster of HEADHUNTERS and read Herbie's sleevenotes - he goes into detail about how and why the whole Mwandishi thing got stale for him... (basically he says they went so far into outer-space with that stuff that he could no longer relate to it and needed to get back in touch with the earth - which he did via Sly Stone and the result was the new stripped down funk of HEADHUNTERS).

KD

[Chuck Nessa]

Can anyone post a "positive" message to this thread without all kinds of "qualifications"?

[Rooster_Ties]

The two Eddie Henderson LP's on Capricorn are amazing. Two of my favorite dates from the 70's -- or from any decade, really.

Is that "unqualified" enough for you, Chuck??

[Chuck Nessa]

Sure. B-)

[Degiorgio]

I like Herbie Hancock

[Chuck Nessa]

I like Herbie Hancock

Which one? Even his record company (Columbia) gave him 2 contracts at one time.

[Degiorgio]

I like the one that played with Miles...

the one that made Maiden Voyage

the one that made Wiggle Waggle

the one that called himself Mwandishi

the one that made Headhunters

the one that sang using a vocoder on You Bet Your Love

the one that made Rockit

not so much the one who has made some albums for Verve...

[JSngry]

I like Herbie Hancock 

Which one? Even his record company (Columbia) gave him 2 contracts at one time.

Wasn't that Verve/Mercury?

[Chuck Nessa]

I like Herbie Hancock 

Which one? Even his record company (Columbia) gave him 2 contracts at one time.

Wasn't that Verve/Mercury?

They might have done it too but I was at a place where Bruce Lundvall and Herbie were discussing the contract(s) they'd just signed. This was around '81.

[JSngry]

Wow.

So was it like the V/M contracts, one for jazz and one for commerical?

[Degiorgio]

wow - indeed.. don't recall much 'straight jazz' material coming from Herbie on Columbia after 81... I just remember some disco hits like Magic Number & Motor Mouth - then it was into Rockit and the Laswell thing.