Degiorgio Posted March 30, 2005 Report Share Posted March 30, 2005 Hi Rod thx for that... this album is a real headf*ck... it was bootlegged last year... I haven't heard it as I read so many bad stories regarding the sound quality that I left it alone. I have never seen an original copy and it never shows up in any Herbie Discographies... there are no reviews of the album in any magazines from around 72/73 either - certainly Downbeat would have reviewed it? But it seems like you have run into at least 2 original issues (I'm sure it wasn't bootlegged back then)... I've tried all angles on getting somebody to try and unearth the original masters... no luck... does it say who engineered the session? Fred Catero? maybe he'd know where the tapes ended up? anybody know Dave Rubinson...? somebody must remember dammit! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sundog Posted March 30, 2005 Author Report Share Posted March 30, 2005 mike clark seems like an egotistical prick. i also got that from something else i read where he said something to the effect that when younger drummers see him come into a club, they play the beat from palm grease to give him "props or propers, which means respect". yeah well you know what mike-your drumming gives me headaches and you couldn't hold a candle to billy hart or tootie heath for that matter who kills it on "the prisoner" or harvey mason, who i don't like so much, but is a much more soulful drummer than you are, mike. He may be an egotistical prick but that "prick" has got some serious skills; and let's face it, he influenced an entire generation of drummers that came after him. Some of which that may even be associated with the operators of this fine board. B-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikeweil Posted March 30, 2005 Report Share Posted March 30, 2005 Yeah, Mike Clark forged a style of his own combining the sophisticated stylings of Elvin Jones and Tony Williams with deep funk, opening up a world for drummers back then. And he tried to bring that into jazz with his own band with trumpeter Jack Walrath. He played some uninspired things too. Harvey Mason is a real genius, very versatile, from subtle to powerful, and much more a pro than Clark. One of the very best drummers around. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikeweil Posted March 30, 2005 Report Share Posted March 30, 2005 thx Mike - that's a shame... I was hoping they would be different mixes like the Crossings 7" (which I also think is on Treasure Chest?) - which has more of Gleesons eerie synth overdubs and focuses on that mad space-age boogie woogie section of Sleeping Giant. Sorry - I mixed up the two singles. The one included on Treasure Chest was the Crossings excerpt. Never heard the other one with Mwandishi excerpts, but I doubt it was a different mix. Probably an edit like the Crossings single. Warner Bros. at one time announced a multi-disc CD set with the unedited tracks from these sessions, similat to the Miles box sets, but that remained a dream ... I was so disappointed when they scaled it down to that 2 CD set. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Degiorgio Posted March 31, 2005 Report Share Posted March 31, 2005 Hi Mike let me clarify the 7" thang... the only 7" promo I have from this period is CROSSINGS. I am now aware thx to you that there is also another promo 7" with OSTINATO/YOU'll KNOW WHEN YOU GET THERE. CROSSINGS was included on the TREASURE CHEST comp. CROSSINGS is not just an edit of a longer track. Remember there is no actual track called CROSSINGS on the CROSSINGS LP. It is actually a section of SLEEPING GIANT but a different mix. Check the drums - they are different from the SLEEPING GIANT segment. Also - there are synth overdubs that are new too... SO - I has hoping the versions of OSTINATO and YOU'LL KNOW WHEN YOU GET THERE were also different mixes from the album versions... I've seen a couple for sale on the 'net so I'll be finding out shortly... I didn't realise Warner's were planning to do a multi-disc edition. This is the project I presented to Warner Jazz UK but they declined and preferred to just go with the straight re-issue digi-pak idea. (They probably wouldn't have been able to do it from the UK anyway but it was worth a try). KD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikeweil Posted March 31, 2005 Report Share Posted March 31, 2005 Didn't remember there were such big differences between the edits and the Sleeping Giant mix - will have to ask that old friend if he still has the LP. I remember reading about the US Warner box set in down beat. I wasn't aware there was a single from the Mandishi tracks before you mentioned it - the Bruyninckx disco doesn't list it - same with the Spook soundtrack. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Degiorgio Posted March 31, 2005 Report Share Posted March 31, 2005 (edited) I wasn't aware there was a single from the Mandishi tracks before you mentioned it my error - i was referring to Crossings 7" being made up from material from Crossings LP... hehe... how confusing can this get?? its not a HUGELY different mix but worth having.. I can see why they planned to release it as a single - its the funkiest most accessible section of the album... kind of like that MILES DAVIS: "Holly-wuud" 7" promo from the same year... (similar in concept for a single - not in sound) KD Edited March 31, 2005 by Degiorgio Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Degiorgio Posted March 31, 2005 Report Share Posted March 31, 2005 (edited) the Bruyninckx disco doesn't list it - same with the Spook soundtrack. I have been searching for evidence of an official commercial release of The Spook from 1973 since I first heard about this film. Not any of my usual record dealers in Europe or Japan have ever turned one up for me. I was told many times it doesn't exist. Rod is the first person who I've come across who seems to have an original... Edited March 31, 2005 by Degiorgio Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kari S Posted March 31, 2005 Report Share Posted March 31, 2005 Hi Kirk D - nice to know a fellow Herbie buff/nut. You sure seem to know your stuff... A multi-disc box set of the Mwandishi/early 70's material with various alt takes and live performances is something that's always been a dream of mine, wonder if it'll ever realize. By the way wasn't there talks that a box set of all of Herbie's Montreux performances would be released? (similar to the McLaughlin and Miles sets) Did you know that there was also another group with Joe Henderson before HH formed the Mwandishi band. Bob Blumenthal writes in his liner notes to the RvG reissue of "The Prisoner" that the band comprised of Hancock, Joe Henderson, Garnett Brown, Johnny Coles, Buster Williams and Tootie Heath. Henderson also played some flute. The material they played was apparently a mixture of Herbie's earlier Blue Note stuff (Eye Of The Hurricane, Maiden Voyage) and songs from "Fat Albert Rotunda" and "The Prisoner". Even though there are bootlegs even from the Mwandishi period, this earlier period seems to be completely missing. Somebody must've been there and recorded it though, I just know it... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Degiorgio Posted March 31, 2005 Report Share Posted March 31, 2005 (edited) Even though there are bootlegs even from the Mwandishi period, this earlier period seems to be completely missing. Somebody must've been there and recorded it though, I just know it... completely undocumented by recordings is the transition from this line-up to the early Mwandishi Band before they got into the space-age stuff. DownBeat interviewed Herbie after a week long stint at the Cellar Door and the line-up is: Eddie Henderson, Julian Priester, Bennie Maupin, Buster Williams & Billy Hart... but they only mention material from FAT ALBERT ROTUNDA - and they are listed under their regular names - without the Swahili prefixes. The jump from stuff like Wiggle Waggle to Wandering Spirit Song is mind-boggling. KD Edited April 1, 2005 by Degiorgio Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alon Marcus Posted April 1, 2005 Report Share Posted April 1, 2005 I enjoy listening to everything Herbie did on electronic instruments. I like the bass lines and those little funky grooves and melodies that he lays in huge amounts one above the other. For me this stuff is always interesting to listen to. The albums that I like from this period are Mr. Hands Fat Albert Rotunda Crossings Thrust I also like the acoustic versions for some of his songs which appear on this album Fingerpainting: The Music of Herbie Hancock Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alon Marcus Posted April 1, 2005 Report Share Posted April 1, 2005 BTW: What do you think about his albums Dis is da Drum and Future2Future? They are not from 1968-1978 but continue the same line. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Wheel Posted April 1, 2005 Report Share Posted April 1, 2005 Only heard Future 2 Future once through, in the library, but was pleasantly surprised by it. I think Laswell really makes this one a success. Definitely lots of electronic stuff going on, but it's still rooted in the blues. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rooster_Ties Posted April 1, 2005 Report Share Posted April 1, 2005 (edited) BTW: What do you think about his albums Dis is da Drum... I like "Dis is da Drum" quite a bit. (Warning to Chuck: I'm about to qualify my remarks ). I do really like it, but I also think the disc runs out of steam a bit, the farther one gets into it. For instance, I'm betting as much as I've listened to the disc, probably 1/3rd of the times I've put it on, I'll stop it about half-way through, in order to put something else on. But the first two or three or four tunes are really great, Wallace Roney's contributions in particular. (I'd have to give it a spin to talk specifically about where I think things get off track --- haven't listened to it in 4-6 months.) Edited April 1, 2005 by Rooster_Ties Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kari S Posted April 1, 2005 Report Share Posted April 1, 2005 completely undocumented by recordings is the transition from this line-up to the early Mwandishi Band before they got into the space-age stuff. DownBeat interviewed Herbie after a week long stint at the Cellar Door... What year is this? Early 70's? (Fat Albert was rec'd in 1969) So Herbie and his troops actually went first into funk, then to the spaced out stuff? Intriguing! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Degiorgio Posted April 1, 2005 Report Share Posted April 1, 2005 the Downbeat issue is early 1971 - so I would guess the Cellar Door gigs and the interview took place in 1970 as Downbeat usually had a delay in getting articles to copy. The article mentions Dizzy Gillespie sitting in the aisle and Bill Cosby at the bottom of some stairs as the club was so packed! KD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Degiorgio Posted April 1, 2005 Report Share Posted April 1, 2005 (edited) I enjoy listening to everything Herbie did on electronic instruments. I like the bass lines and those little funky grooves and melodies that he lays in huge amounts one above the other. For me this stuff is always interesting to listen to. me too. I like pretty much everything Herbie did up to and including FUTURE SHOCK. I know some have slated Herbie for his disco era and ridiculed his vocoder usage but this is the period that I first heard. I was heavily into disco and tracks like I Thought It Was You, You Bet Your Love and Tell Everybody always stood out as having something a bit 'deeper' than most other disco cuts. So this led me to investigate the albums and tracks like COME RUNNING TO ME from SUNLIGHT, TRUST ME from FEETS DON'T FAIL ME NOW and JUST AROUND THE CORNER from MR. HANDS were the tracks that got me into jazz. (Herbie's solo on the latter track is still one of my fave e.piano solo's ever). BTW: What do you think about his albums Dis is da Drum and Future2Future? Haven't really listened to Dis Is Da Drum. Heard Future2Future a couple of times - and know some of the guest artists involved but I was disappointed. The concept of getting Herbie together with the current crop of electronic dance producers sounds good in theory but I'm not sure it worked out that well. KD Edited April 1, 2005 by Degiorgio Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikeweil Posted April 1, 2005 Report Share Posted April 1, 2005 Basically I like Dis Is Da Drum and Future 2 Future, only that the drum machine beats kill any rhythmic subtleties in the music. I'd wish for an alternate version without them - the Hip Hop audience sure wouldn't buy this, however. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikeweil Posted April 1, 2005 Report Share Posted April 1, 2005 Mr. Hands The varied personnel on this make me think it is a collection of leftovers and abandoned projects. There is one track - Shiftless Suffle - by the Headhunters band with Harvey Mason, an absolute killer track! A shame it wasn't added to the Headhunters CD as a bonus track. There is an early live bootleg of the band with that track. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sundog Posted April 1, 2005 Author Report Share Posted April 1, 2005 Thanks to everyone who has posted. A lot of very good/interesting information in this thread. It's been a education. Really enjoying Flood and Thrust. I need to spend some time with the WB material. However my initial cursory listening tells me I will be enjoying this material for a long time to come. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kari S Posted April 1, 2005 Report Share Posted April 1, 2005 -Re: vocoder and disco stuff- The version of "I Thought It Was You" on "Sunlight" is probably one of the most sunniest tunes of the 70's, even though it's the cheesiest Love Boat groove ever. But the killer version is on the Japanese release "Direct Step" - Herbie jams with the vocoder for about 15 mins.! -Re: "Dis Is Da Drum", "Future 2 Future"- IMO "DiDD" has maybe only a couple of worthwhile tracks, with trademark Hancock acoustic piano soloing on top of the beats. Future 2 Future could've been so much more, but at it's current state it just... isn't working. Kind of like a lame 21st Century version of "Future Shock" (which I didn't like either, though). I blame Laswell for this, who supposedly re-edited and remixed most of the material to its current form without even consulting Hancock. The Live DVD however, is a different story altogether. Herbie's acoustic piano playing over the grooves is absolutely mind-blowing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rostasi Posted April 5, 2005 Report Share Posted April 5, 2005 Came across this while assembling a new playlist: Spook Promo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Degiorgio Posted April 6, 2005 Report Share Posted April 6, 2005 great.. the backing music is nutz... if that's Herbie... well.... somebody *really* needs to find the masters to this... KD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rostasi Posted April 6, 2005 Report Share Posted April 6, 2005 great.. the backing music is nutz... if that's Herbie... well.... somebody *really* needs to find the masters to this... KD I doubt that it's Herbie - usually studio musicians who's, nearly, sole job was to create music for movie trailers...but YES! it would be nice to hear those original tapes! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Al Posted April 6, 2005 Report Share Posted April 6, 2005 Managed to get a copy of FLOOD from a very generous Board member, and it is more than the shit: it is downright DIRRRRRTY!!!! Had to clean the room after it was all over, it got so greeeeeeazy in there! Been spinning Fat Albert Rotunda nonstop the past few daze. Fat, funky, and greeeeeazy, this is the record I was hoping The Prisoner would’ve been when I saw the lineup on THAT record. Fat Albert has some of my favorite Joe Henderson solos, especially on the alto flute on “Tell Me a Bedtime Story.” And then there’s “Jessica,” as lovely a free-form ballad as I’ve ever heard! Pity this lineup didn’t record further together. As far as Mwandishi and Crossings go, I tend to respect them for the direction Herbie was taking more than I actually listen to them. I think I listened to them both only once, and while the experience was an enjoyable one (laying on the floor with my head between both speakers; now THAT was a trip!), I rarely felt the urge to ever listen to them again. When I did, my interest waned quickly with each tune (the lone exception being the ultra-groovy “Ostinato”). Music like that makes me wish I could actually see it being performed; something just seems to get lost in the translation when it’s just listening to it from a record. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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