Herbie Hancock

[JSngry]

13 hours ago, mikeweil said:

I remember, btw., German critic Ulrich Ohlshausen saying at some point in the early 1970's that groups like Terumasa Hino or Ian Carr were playing Miles' post Bitches Brew music better than he did.

That's kind of a meaningless comparison, because Miles himself kept moving. Bitches Brew music was not Fillmore music was not Jack Johnson music was not Live-Evil music was definitely not On the Corner music and for damn sure was not Agharta/Pangea music.

Miles drew up a buttload of blueprints for others to build houses by. No matter how well-built the houses were built, they existed only because the architect designed them that way.

13 hours ago, Chuck Nessa said:

Sorry, I thought the entire fusion movement was a cheap effort for $$ 

My feelings have not changed.

I'm having a hard time remembering "the entire fusion movement"...it never seemed monolithic to me. Not at the beginning (especially not at the beginning) and not at the end, either. Too many formulas devolved as it went along, and that's the drudgery.

I do, though, remember plenty of cheap efforts, too many. But I also recall some pretty good records as well (again, less as time went by), and if they were going for $$, they had the decency to do it well.

[felser]

22 hours ago, HutchFan said:

I need to check out those Carlos Garnett records. I know and really like "Black Love" -- but I've never dug any deeper into his discography. 

"Journey To Enlightenment" and "Let This Melody Ring On"   are in the same vein as "Black Love", and even better albums.  Carpe Diem while they are still available.

[danasgoodstuff]

4 hours ago, JSngry said:

That's kind of a meaningless comparison, because Miles himself kept moving. Bitches Brew music was not Fillmore music was not Jack Johnson music was not Live-Evil music was definitely not On the Corner music and for damn sure was not Agharta/Pangea music.

Miles drew up a buttload of blueprints for others to build houses by. No matter how well-built the houses were built, they existed only because the architect designed them that way.

I'm having a hard time remembering "the entire fusion movement"...it never seemed monolithic to me. Not at the beginning (especially not at the beginning) and not at the end, either. Too many formulas devolved as it went along, and that's the drudgery.

I do, though, remember plenty of cheap efforts, too many. But I also recall some pretty good records as well (again, less as time went by), and if they were going for $$, they had the decency to do it well.

What he said, all of it.  And more.

[HutchFan]

20 minutes ago, felser said:

"Journey To Enlightenment" and "Let This Melody Ring On"   are in the same vein as "Black Love", and even better albums.  Carpe Diem while they are still available.

Thanks, felser. More for the "To Get" list.  

[mikeweil]

On 4.1.2019 at 2:36 PM, JSngry said:

That's kind of a meaningless comparison, because Miles himself kept moving. Bitches Brew music was not Fillmore music was not Jack Johnson music was not Live-Evil music was definitely not On the Corner music and for damn sure was not Agharta/Pangea music.

Ohlshausen may not have liked Miles' later outings, but certainly couldn't have known them at a time when Ian Carr's Nucleus and Terumasa Hino made their first records in that style - and he was kinda right about these. They had a looser approch than Miles, especially considering Bitches Brew and others being spliced together as much as they were. Pianist George Gruntz meant something similar when he said that he felt nobody on Bitches Brew had really cut loose.

The problem is in the  evaluation as such, methinks. Different approches yield different results. None of those early fusion guys could have known where it all would go, musicaly and commercially.

Edited January 5, 2019 by mikeweil

[JSngry]

Still think it's a meaningless comparison, if only because Bitches Brew was indeed a record, and somewhat  a "created" one at that. But that music was also being played live, quite more intensely than what came out of that one record, and if that guy didn't have access to those live shows, then what does that opinion count for, really. It's another case of people conflating records and music.

And it's also kind of like, who was it from Kenton's band, Buddy Childress, or maybe Kenton himself telling Dizzy that  "we're playing your music better than you are", I mean, who even thinks like that to begin with? If that's the right answer, then it's the wrong question.

As for Gruntz, well sure, why not? But even more importantly, why? So nobody "cuts loose", but it's still a record that changed the world (so to speak). Priorities, please.