Che banned?

[JSngry]

No, I was just joking (Up to a point) Most of his views were in line with most of the folks here, with the one very big exception!

I beg to differ, B. His "views" consisted entirely of empty slogans, tired cliches, belaboring of the obvious, and, when all else failed, "read Chomski". HE seemed to be totally lacking in nuance, the ability to ponder ambiguity, and of doing anything other than parroting a relatively few worn-out lines over and over. I preume to speak for no one but myself, but I would be very surprised if any of the thoughtful members of the "left" on this board viewed him as "one of us". I sure as hell didn't.

Now, if my description of che above as a simpleminded sloganeer makes those on the right say, "HA! How is that any different than any of you other guys?", then we have a problem. Ditto for for the lefties thinking that of the right. A BIG problem.

I know the rhetoric gets pretty heated in the political discussions more often than not, but really - when cool heads prevail and the focus is on light rather than heat, I think it's obvious that most of the participants are intellegent and thoughtful individuals who bring a variety of nuanced perspectives to any given issue. Che did not seem to be capable of doing that, not at all. If he had it in him, he never showed it, not that I saw. He was a one-trick pony. Two, maybe. Three on a really good day, with the wind blowing out. This is from a "political" perspective. Musically, hey, whatever, no judgements on that from me.

His views were in line with most of the folks here the same way that an Etch-A-Sketch is in line with a handwritten letter.

[JSngry]

HEY SANRGY DID YOU MAKE ANYMORE OF THAT BRISKIT I COULD EAT A SHITLOAD OF THAT.

THAT WUZ SLIGHTADVANTAGEREDO YOU NDMBSAS YU NO - GREG WAIST

[JSngry]

HEY SANRGY DID YOU MAKE ANYMORE OF THAT BRISKIT I COULD EAT A SHITLOAD OF THAT.

THAT WUZ SLIGHTADVANTAGEREDO YOU NDMBSAS YU NO - GREG WAIST

mutherfukker didn't even invite ME over for any...

Im gonna get HIS ass banned for that!

[A Lark Ascending]

His "views" consisted entirely of empty slogans, tired cliches, belaboring of the obvious, and, when all else failed, "read Chomski".  HE seemed to be totally lacking in nuance, the ability to ponder ambiguity, and of doing anything other than parroting a relatively few worn-out lines over and over. I preume to speak for no one but myself, but I would be very surprised if any of the thoughtful members of the "left" on this board viewed him as "one of us". I sure as hell didn't.

The frightening thing is that he claimed to be a child psychiatrist! Teachers tend to be pretty cynical about child psychiatrists (as child psychiatrists are of teachers!). I'd not like to think about the state one of my more difficult children would come back in after a few sessions. "Of course I'm not doing any bloody homework. Chomsky says..." Or maybe he'd just hand the homework in in Finnish!

He set the wheels in motion for his expulsion from AAJ just after the US elections. Most comments were of disappointment/despair from the mainly liberal minded posters. 'Che' proceeded to tell them that they were part of the problem. Some very mild-mannered, easy-going posters got very upset.

He did seem to learn from that; his anti-Americanism was largely kept in check here...but I was just waiting for it to break out. In the event he put his foot in it elsewhere.

Edited April 2, 2005 by Bev Stapleton

[brownie]

Catching up on this...

Che is out? He sure won't be missed...

The air was starting to be poisonous here!

I think I'll clear the air with a taste of a good Havana cigar -_-

[1ngram]

Well, whatever faults Che had he didn't show himself to be quite so self righteously patronising as some of you on this thread.

[JSngry]

...his anti-Americanism was largely kept in check here...but I was just waiting for it to break out.

I still say he goes to Nova Scotia, sneaks across the border, and blows us all up.

It's the martyrly thing to do!

[Guest Chaney]

CheWatch: JC Post 9: Nice list Lois! Now we know who the true jazz afficionado's are, unlike some people I know.

OUCH!

[sidewinder]

Chewatch JC update

Quote: 'Thank you Che and welcome, please make sure to stop by in Speakout the thread Stop By and Say Hello First'

Uh oh.......

[catesta]

CheWatch: JC Post 9: Nice list Lois! Now we know who the true jazz afficionado's are, unlike some people I know.

OUCH!

The saga continues.....

[Jazzmoose]

Well, whatever faults Che had he didn't show himself to be quite so self righteously patronising as some of you on this thread.

You know, one of the problems we have here is that this place really is more of a "hanging with pals at the bar" type board. In 'real life' (and I apologize for using that term) it's easy to deal with irritants, simply by ignoring them, or if they're too thick to take the hint, tossing their ass out of the bar. I don't see why it should be that different here.

[Big Al]

Well, whatever faults Che had he didn't show himself to be quite so self righteously patronising as some of you on this thread.

You know, one of the problems we have here is that this place really is more of a "hanging with pals at the bar" type board. In 'real life' (and I apologize for using that term) it's easy to deal with irritants, simply by ignoring them, or if they're too thick to take the hint, tossing their ass out of the bar. I don't see why it should be that different here.

"Problem?" Were that my whole life were this problematic! B-)

1ngram, that statement about che is complete and total bullshit. che NOT "patronising?" Hell, that was #1 on his list of faults! If we're too "patronising" for you, you could always follow your comrade, and his one-track-one-trick-mind, over to JC.

[sonic1]

What should we JCers know about Che? He has jumped onto our ship now.

[1ngram]

I didnt say he wasnt patronising, I was comparing his "unconscious" with some people here's "conscious" staments - comparing someone to a mongoloid, only giving him a nickname after he is safely out of sight - you know the kind of thing a feart little boy does after the big bad bully is out of sight.

BTW he wasn't a comrade of mine, far too right wing for me.

[JSngry]

Well, Ingram, I see your point, but otoh, we were kind of between a rock and a hard place here. When he first came on board, a lot of people jumped all over his ass, and that came to be viewed as piling on or some such. And it kinda was, after a point. So what then? Collective teeth-gritting, PMs exchanged (I got a couple - they were "nice" in tone. I responded sincerely yet respectfully, and although I was never fully disabused of the martyr notion, I think a mutual attitude of "tolerant agreement/respectful disagreement" was struck) and, in general, a collective sense that it was just a matter of time before this guy burnt out, imploded, whatever, so we were just goiing to have to ride it out.

Which we did, mostly, and sure enough, he did just what was expected. BOOM! So some of what's going on here is nothing more than a collective exhalation after a slightly-longer-than-expected holding of the breath and biting of the tongue. Not necessarily mature or whatever, but hey, hopefully it'll be over as soon as normal oxygen levels are restored...

I myself am more than willing to move on, strike it up as another chapter in the Never-Ending Adventures Of Cyberspace, and call the Department of Homeland Security to alert them of his impending arrival in Nova Scotia.

Seriously, if the guy really is nothing more than a troll, or a really nasty fuckhead, well, good riddance to bad rubbish. But if he's some "regular" guy who really doesn't understand how his manner annoys (at best) and deeply offends (at worst) so many people, and who reaches frustration saturation point a little too soon for his or anybody else's good, here's hoping that sooner or later he gets a clue, acts on it, and grows up/out/whatever. Everybody's got baggage, but some people seem to seem to be unable to check thiers at the curb before boarding...

Edited April 2, 2005 by JSngry

[Big Al]

I shoulda become suspicious when he started that Green Day American Idiot thread (still a favorite record of mine, BTW).

Now if you'll excuse me, I have some more exhaling to do.....

[A Lark Ascending]

When 'Che' first arrived I did not recognise him for the first couple of weeks. I seem to recall sticking up for him indirectly in one of my tiresome tirades against group hugs. I assumed he was actually some hapless teenager who needed to be treated gently.

Then the parallels began to appear - the Finland obsession, rugby etc. He seemed to go out of his way to avoid provoking on the issue that got him removed from AAJ; and I was happy to respond to some of his posts which dealt with European/UK jazz. I'd assumed he'd learned his lesson.

However, I began to get a bit freaked by his over-familiarity - the above mentioned occasion when he started welcoming people to the board a few weeks in did strike me as a bit strange.

You only saw part of him here - to be honest his musical posts were rather more thoughtful at AAJ. Here that never seemed to amount to more than namechecking the latest person he'd read about in Jazzwise.

I don't think he's a bad guy. But he does seem very, very thick skinned. We all say daft things, get into rows we later regret; and then either apologise or lie low for a while. 'Che's' response was always to fight back harder. I tried once at AAJ to suggest going a bit easier in the US election dispute; I was categorically told that I was trying to censor him!

Anyway, I wouldn't worry too much about an invasion from Nova Scotia. Seems unlikely. I'm the one who really has to worry. He claimed to have booked into some of the Cheltenham Jazz Festival shows I'm also at.

A false beard and moustache will be needed, I think. Goatee, of course. So I can blend in well.

Edited April 2, 2005 by Bev Stapleton

[ghost of miles]

Seriously though, I thought Che insinuated himself on the board rather abruptly.  Several people, myself included, counseled him as to how he might go about integrating himself more smoothly and, by and large, I thought he had gotten better.  Guess you never really know, though.  He might have seen his departure as some sort of act of self sacrifice or martyrdom, who knows.

I did the same thing, Dave. I'll echo what I said in another thread: I think it's good that Jim and Use3D did not ban somebody simply b/c he annoyed some longtime posters. I hope his voluntary departure enables us to move on... whatever errors he made seem to me mightily trumped by the abusive--yes, abusive--invective that was hurled at him constantly, often on a hit-and-run basis in threads that had nothing to do with the comments the poster made. I know I'm in the minority on this issue, but I've spent a lot of time on jazz boards in the past five years, and I don't think I've ever seen somebody treated as badly as Che was here.

Edited April 2, 2005 by ghost of miles

[Jazzmoose]

Perhaps he was treated badly; I certainly wasn't very friendly to him. But when someone pisses in my cornflakes, I don't feel that compelled to offer them a cup of coffee.

[Free For All]

I've spent a lot of time on jazz boards in the past five years, and I don't think I've ever seen somebody treated as badly as Che was here.

There were a few times I almost felt some sympathy for che, but then he'd turn around and stick his cyber-foot in his cyber-mouth and my feelings would go back to .

As times (early on) he seemed naive and *innocent*, but soon he became IMHO consciously manipulative and intentionally tried to light some fires, and to me it seemed he was enjoying the results.

Among the flames directed at him several people tried very sincerely to be calmly constructively critical and helpful (and I commend them for that), but he seemed to want none of it. I'm glad he left voluntarily, although it might have been a "quit or be fired" decision.

I don't like to see people treated badly either, but I don't feel much sympathy now.

Edited April 2, 2005 by Free For All

[AfricaBrass]

This whole episode really made me question whether or not we should have Politics around here. I think if we go into that place we need to be completely willing to be offended. I like being able to talk about anything, but I don't like what has gone done since Che's arrival.

I also question if the use of political avatars is something that should be allowed. Che accused me of censorship when I suggested he change his avatar to a less offensive one. Maybe we should make sure that the rule is that politics stay in Politics.

I do give kudos to Berigan, Weizen, and those on the right who take much of the (hopefully) gentle abuse that's heaped on them.

I tried my best to be a peacemaker. Now I feel a little stupid for bothering in the first place. My days on the new member are welcome wagon are over for now.

[ghost of miles]

Perhaps he was treated badly; I certainly wasn't very friendly to him. But when someone pisses in my cornflakes, I don't feel that compelled to offer them a cup of coffee.

Well, he pissed in my cornflakes too, so to speak, when he first came here. I had a pretty pointed exchange with him in some thread--I certainly understand the basis for his "annoying" rep. If I thought that was all there was to him I wouldn't have been as bothered as I was by the later attacks on him. Nobody has a right to be liked, or even to necessarily be treated in a friendly manner. I was just surprised and stung by the ugliness that came out in responses to him.

[Man with the Golden Arm]

Took a lot of Googling to sleuth him(sic) out but now SoulStation1 can finally rent out that signature space.

Edited April 2, 2005 by Man with the Golden Arm

[randissimo]

Perhaps he was treated badly; I certainly wasn't very friendly to him.  But when someone pisses in my cornflakes, I don't feel that compelled to offer them a cup of coffee.

Well, he pissed in my cornflakes too, so to speak, when he first came here. I had a pretty pointed exchange with him in some thread--I certainly understand the basis for his "annoying" rep. If I thought that was all there was to him I wouldn't have been as bothered as I was by the later attacks on him. Nobody has a right to be liked, or even to necessarily be treated in a friendly manner. I was just surprised and stung by the ugliness that came out in responses to him.

Personally, I never had any problems with che, or even found che that offensive really.. I even went back and read some of his posts in his profile. Maybe I didn't go deep enough into his posts... Nobody yet even comes close to Wingy's caustic ramblings..

[ghost of miles]

Nobody yet even comes close to Wingy's caustic ramblings..

I think you've found the grounds for a consensus, Randy!