Don Ellis - ESSENCE (Mighty Quinn)

[Michael Fitzgerald]

There always *something* of interest on the later records. Starting with the "Goes Underground" record, the pop elements started getting more and more prominent. Do you really need to hear Don Ellis play Gilbert O'Sullivan's "Alone Again, Naturally" - well, if you do, you can (on the album "Connection"). The earlier Columbias are still kind of dated because of the rock/Indian/electric aspects, but if you like the Pacific Jazz big band ones, you certainly won't hate them.

The other thing that's a little worrisome is how his liner notes are so damned sincere. He really believes that what he's doing is the absolute greatest thing ever.

Mike

[JSngry]

There always *something* of interest on the later records. Starting with the "Goes Underground" record, the pop elements started getting more and more prominent...The earlier Columbias are still kind of dated because of the rock/Indian/electric aspects, but if you like the Pacific Jazz big band ones, you certainly won't hate them.

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But even that one has the splendid "Bulgarian Bulge"!

And the whole rock/Indian/electric is often what retains my interest today. The "Hey Jude" on Fillmore goes beyond gimmickry into the realm of the genuinely warped, and the "Indian Lady" on Autumn is simply one of the greatest big band performances on record, period. In my opinion, of course.

Agreed, though, that the pop element started taking over, and that was...unfortunate. That and the elements of "gimmickry" (which, in this case, I'll define as a new idea not fully thought out/mulled over/etc and subsequently presented in nothing resembling an organic form) are rampant. But when it works, it works gloriously.

However, I don't have, but have heard, the later MPS Haiku, and it is pretty darn interesting indeed. Very organic, imo.

[AllenLowe]

I once aske Jaki Byard about Ellis - what he said is quite interesting (and this is a direct quote): "Great musician - ignored because he was white."

Edited August 28, 2005 by AllenLowe

[clifford_thornton]

I have Essence on LP - not too expensive, I think I paid what a CD would cost - and it has always been a favorite. Gene Stone had a place in Topanga Canyon where Sonny Simmons lived for a while, and they practiced daily which led to The Cry. This and the New Jazz are the ones I reach for, then the Candid, then...

You can still get Heckman's Improvisational Jazz Workshop LP (Ictus 101) from Cadence for like $12. The pressing is garbage, but the music is good. Of course, it's not the original with the hand-silkscreened cover and book, but still a reasonably vintage issue.

[Michael Fitzgerald]

"reasonably vintage" - isn't that like "somewhat pregnant"?

Mike

[mikeweil]

That "other" Candid album - wasn't that released as Out of Nowhere? Paul Bley and Steve Swallow are his partners here - this makes great comparison to the Jimmy Giuffre sesssions of the time. Ellis was a highly original trumpeter - that heavies like Mingus and Russell hired him speaks for itself.

I can recommend them both - the other one which was released at the time has Jaki Byard, Ron Carter and Charli Persip.

Edited August 28, 2005 by mikeweil

[Michael Fitzgerald]

No, reportedly there is yet ANOTHER session for Candid, a quintet.

Mike

[Chuck Nessa]

No, reportedly there is yet ANOTHER session for Candid, a quintet.

Mike

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So, give details if you have 'em.

[Michael Fitzgerald]

Wish I had some. Album title "Improvisations". Unknown as, p, b, d. Believed to be from 1960, one tune by Arif Mardin.

That is all.

Mike

[Guest akanalog]

i know that for me, ellis' music has been presented with a very unappealing gimmicky veneer and also with a tacked on exoticness (weird instrumentation and time signatures which has made me avoid it. also besides the new jazz album which i bought, a very unappealing group of sidemen generally.

[Michael Fitzgerald]

Your issue with the sidemen perplexes me - do you mean that you know these folks and their music and it doesn't appeal to you?

Because if you do like the New Ideas album, there's more than just that. How Time Passes is the same band minus Al Francis. I would imagine if you like New Ideas you would probably like all the early small group stuff, including Essence.

Now, as for the California big band - do you find the sidemen unappealing because you know them or because you don't know them?

While there are some bigger name people in that band (Joe Roccisano, Tom Scott, Frank Strozier, John Klemmer, Ted Nash, Fred Selden, Glenn Ferris, George Bohanon, Mike Lang, Ralph Humphrey, Jay Graydon, Milcho Leviev, for example) - if you consider those "bigger name" - but I'd say the majority of the sidemen are NOT known for anything else.

Certainly Ellis was interested in stretching boundaries of instrumentation and he explored things like odd meter and microtonality - if such experimentation doesn't interest you, that's fine. But I don't think it was "tacked on" - he spent time seriously studying ethnomusicology and composition. Was it exotic - absolutely, but there was some foundation. His music can be seen as evolving from things that Kenton, Mingus, Sauter-Finegan, Brubeck, and others did. Ellis knew his history. I'm sure others can name more antecedents.

Mike

[RDK]

Very pleased to find a thread about this reissue this morning. I had somehow missed the earlier thread about Mighty Quinn, so when I stumbled upon a promo/used copy of this disc on Saturday I was rather shocked. I vaguely recall that this had been rumored as a "lost Connoisseur" or something like that, so the title jumped out at me... but I had no clue as to who/what Mighty Quinn was or why this was released with no fanfare on this board (obviously, I just missed the fanfare).

Anyway, as others have noted, this is a really terrific disc. "Ostinato" jumps out as a fast fav, but the whole thing is interesting. Love the many different tempos and sound textures, all coming from what's essentially a trumpet quartet. Looking forward to more MQ discs in the future...

[Guest akanalog]

i would certainly like to hear more early stuff, mike, i look forward to hearing those candid albums.

as far as the later stuff goes-hearing a bunch of well coached music school cats playing tricky charts isn't why i listen to the jazz.

i might as well go put on an emil richards side.

though some of these characters have given me pleasure on many a john klemmer impulse side when i need that itch scratched.

i do like ralph humphrey's stiff style in perhaps the most challenging (and my favorite) of zappa's ensembles (in '73).

[Joe]

There's also an album from the Columbia Music of Our Time series

that's conducted by Leonard Bernstein with pieces by Ligeti, Morton Feldman,

and our very own UNT professor Larry Austin that has Ellis playing on it

(and Barre Phillips too!)

Great LP, and it also sports one of the most eye-abusing Op Art LP covers ever designed.

[Chuck Nessa]

Would someone please post the track timings of the new cd?

[RDK]

Would someone please post the track timings of the new cd?

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From the back of the CD:

Johnny Come Lately 4:51

Slow Space 4:30

Ostinato 7:00

Donkey 4:34

Form 10:15

Angel Eyes 4:18

Irony 5:07

Lover 3:20

The times listed on AMG are slightly different

[Chuck Nessa]

Thanks a bunch. I was forced to sell most of my lps a while ago, made tapes and recently transferred them to cdrs. At some point my cassette deck started slowing down and I wanted to know if this disc was one of them.

Yup.

[Dennis_M]

Anybody interested in the technical aspects of Ellis' work should download the dissertation from Johns Hopkins University, entitled "The Exotic Rhythms Of Don Ellis," by Sean Fenlon. More information than most people would ever want.

http://www.donellismusic.com/Dissertation/dissertation.html

My personal opinion is that his three early big band recordings, Indian Lady, Live at Monterey and Live in 3 and 3/4 Time were near masterpieces. Unfortunately, he then turned his efforts to attracting the college crowd, and things went down hill. However, as someone pointed out, all of his recordings had something to offer. Too bad he died so early (heart failure). Who knows what he might have achieved.

[JSngry]

215 & 3/4...

[Dennis_M]

Correction to my previous post: "Indian Lady" is a cut on the album "Electric Bath". Also, "Live in 3 and 3/4 Time" is really "Live in (3 2/3)/4 Time. Not that I could tell the difference....

[JohnT]

How is "Electric Bath"? I've never heard that one. Is it worth picking up?

[Dennis_M]

Sure. It's a highly polished studio album. Of the three I mentioned, it's my least favorite, but anyone who is interested in alternative time signatures and innovative music in the 60's-70's should give it a spin.

[JSngry]

as far as the later stuff goes-hearing a bunch of well coached music school cats playing tricky charts isn't why i listen to the jazz.

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Anybody interested in the technical aspects of Ellis' work should download the dissertation from Johns Hopkins University, entitled "The Exotic Rhythms Of Don Ellis," by Sean Fenlon.  More information than most people would ever want.

http://www.donellismusic.com/Dissertation/dissertation.html

Although I sympathize completely with the first sentiment, the second post reveals a deeper issue. Namely, was Don Ellis' rhythmic/odd-meter "fixation" a gimmick or something deeper? I believe that it was the latter, and that to judge his music solely by the type of players he got to play it is selling it short.

To have any kind of a ongoing working unit, you have to have players.And if your concept is as "out of sync" (irony intended) with the prevailing mainstream, as Ellis' certainly was, your worry shifts from "who can I get to play this music with all the nuance and sensitivity it deserves" to simply "who can I get to play this music". You wanna get guys to play a Basie or Herman type gig, hey, no problem - 4/4, swing, standard changes, blowing space for the soloists, get in line. You wanna get somebody to play in 35/16 or some such all night long, with "exotic" modes, electronics, and such, well, yeah, there's always going to be that special kind of frak who drools at the chance, god bless 'em, but a whole big band's worth? Not in this world...

Ellis' "fatal flaw" may well have been his conviction/delusion/whatever that a big band was the best format for his ideas. The finances alone made it a daunting task (and no doubt led to some of the bizzare choices of direction/material), and the reality of finding players to fill the chairs no doubt often compromised his vision in all but it's most obvious points. But I for one don't question his sincerity, nor his vision, nor do I cast aspersion on the sheer guts it took to do what he did the way he did it. When he succeeded, he did so magnificiently, and when he failed, well, the old back-handed compliment of "I dig what you're trying to do" applies, and not necessarily always as a back-handed compliment.

Was Don Ellis a "visionary"? No, I don't think so, at least not in the "messianic" sense of the word. But he was definitely way ahead of the curve (the "jazz" curve, anyway) in tems of things like odd-meters/world rhythms, microtones, electronics, and stuff like that, stuff that would come to the fore on a larger scale in years to come. Judge the work on its own merits, but do so with the realization that this was not a "poser" who pretended to know more than they did, nor was this somebody who, like Stan Kenton, depended on outside forces to create "his" vision. No - Don Ellis was "Don Ellis", for better or worse, in triumph and in failure. Me myself, I gotta respect the hell outta that.

[Dennis_M]

Namely, was Don Ellis' rhythmic/odd-meter "fixation" a gimmick or something deeper? I believe that it was the latter, and that to judge his music solely by the type of players he got to play it is selling it short.

I'm not sure what the issue is here, but I certainly agree that Ellis' rhythmic innovations were sincere and well worth the effort. At one time, I was an expert at counting out 19/4, and just about any other rhythm he played. I only wish he would have kept up the sincere approach in his later albums. Still, I regard him as one of the most under appreciated and talented musicians of the last several decades.

[Big Wheel]

Sure.  It's a highly polished studio album.  Of the three I mentioned, it's my least favorite, but anyone who is interested in alternative time signatures and innovative music in the 60's-70's should give it a spin.

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My uncle gave me a tape of this record years ago (misplaced it but haven't replaced it with the CD yet due to laziness). But I can still hear in my head those crazy half-steps (or are they quarter-tones?) on the horn entrance to "Turkish Bath"--awesome!

Edited August 30, 2005 by Big Wheel