Miles Davis question

[AllenLowe]

he's no Arturo Sandoval -

[Stereojack]

he's no Arturo Sandoval -

Thankfully!

[AllenLowe]

not to change the subject, but why does everything Sandoval play sound like "Flight of the Bumble Bee" ?

[JSngry]

I still say that a big factor in Miles' being successful was that he expected to be successful, and "acted" accordingly. He had this instilled in him from the day he was born, and the lesson took.

The original question, why was Miles so successful, is as much a "psychology of business" question as it is anything else, and Miles was a helluva businessman. No way around that. His music had "mass appeal" (relatively speaking) simply because he himself saw no reason for it not to. He understood the importance of image and how it intertwined with product (as, btw, did Mingus, who is more of a "household name" that most jazz musicians) and worked it, and not in a disingenuous way.

The image was essentially a reflection of the man - that of somebody who knew he was right and dared you not to agree. You can market the hell out of shit like that. That's not an intrinsically bad thing either. After all, what is "charisma" other than, at root, exactly such an attitude?

The thing is - can you back up such an attitude with the goods to justify it, and therefore sustain it? Miles obviously could, and the factors that Lon so accurately described are how he did it. But the goods wouldn't get too far out the gate without the attitude. It goes beyond gimmickry and manipulation, it goes to the crux of the matter - how do you see yourself in relation to the rest of the world, and what are you going to do to see to it that you achieve what you see as your "rightful place" therein?

What you're going to have to do to make it to the level that Miles did is A) refuse to settle fo being put in a niche, personally and professionally; B) not run away from or otherwise be intimidated by "the man", but rather shake hands with him in a mutually benefical deal that negates neither sides' essential interests; C) once you make the deal, never back down from your essential sense of entitlement to the rewards thereof, nor lose the realization that you're entitled to the rewards only if you continue to deliver the/your goods at the highest possible level(which in Miles' case, I believe translated as delivering continuosuly relevant creative music -not pap - that spoke to more than a niche audience - again, see Lon's comments) .

That's a very "upwardly mobile middle class" attitude/strategy, but hell, that's who Miles was. His unique position as an African-American Creative Genius gave him a sense of spirit and depth of perspective that most upwardly mobile middle class people don't have, but that's the gist of it as I see it. He understood how this particular game was played, and the game he understood was not working around or for "the man", but with him, each to get what they want, even if each had little use for the other once their respective monies were in their respective banks.

Most "jazz musicians" can't/won't/don't operate from this perspective, and for a variety of reasons, some of them honorable, some of them just plain ol' paranoid and/or self-destructive. But Miles was not one of them, and that's ultimately why Miles was so successful.

Edited January 28, 2006 by JSngry

[Harold_Z]

not to change the subject, but why does everything Sandoval play sound like "Flight of the Bumble Bee" ?

The Rafael Mendez influence ?

[marcello]

I completely agree with the above. The music could use a little more of the right attitude on stage. At least look like you mean to be there! Miles has attitude to spare.

Once I read a interview with Philly Joe who was asked something like, "Whose group was the better working band at the time: Brown / Roach or Miles' Quintet?"

Philly said: "Ours was; we were stronger because we had Miles."

I took what he ment by that was that they had the whole package, that band.

[johnagrandy]

Miles was one of the greatest ever but he is vastly overrated by the general population and that is reason enough to listen to others. How many Miles tribute albums are there? It's ridiculous. Every guy who bought a latte at Starbucks knows all about Miles.

How can "one of the greatest ever" be "vastly overrated"?

As for the Starbucks customer, he may know the name, but he certainly doesn't know "all about Miles".

I've been a jazz fan for over 40 years and this business about Miles' "lack of" technique is older than that. There may be trumpeters who can execute passages faster and cleaner, but nobody made music as compelling as Miles. I would liken Miles to a great actor, a dramatist, who can move audiences not by technical bravura, but with a great sense of drama and pacing.

Every time I hear his version of "Stella By Starlight" on "My Funny Valentine", I am reminded of what a brilliant musician he was!

Because he **is** vastly overrated by the general public. Just like Luciano Pavorotti is. Just like Zucchero is. Just like Jerry Garcia was. Just like Sting is. Just like Bono is. Just like Johnny Cash was. Just like Ray Charles was. Just like B.B. King is. Just like Stevie Wonder is. Just like Herbie Hancock is. Etc. Etc. Etc. It goes on and on forever. All of these are massively talented musicians who exist/existed in the absolute upper echelons of their art -- but because the non-specialist in a given musical genre never hears most of the other talents in that genre, these icons' public personas vastly overstate their relative abilities.

It's part pure commercialism: wanna make some bread? Put out a Miles tribute album. They may have never heard of "you", but they sure heard of Miles.

When I talk about technique , I'm not talking about Wynton Marsalis technique. I'm talking about intense dynamic flow of melodic, harmonic, rhythmic, spiritual, and emotional ideas in a specific style. Hard bop wasn't Miles' primary forte. He in fact was in the upper echelon in the improvisational realm and was one of the overall greats on the horn, but as for burning hard-bop, he couldn't touch early Diz or Fats or Brownie or Lee or Freddie or Woody, or modern guys like Payton etc.

I don't think Miles' music was the pinnacle of "compelling". He doesn't speak to me anything like Woody or Lee does. But that's a personal thing. And it might be partially due to overexposure.

Miles might have been the right man in the right place throughout his life (not so much by accident, but more by savvy choice). That may explain a lot of the reknown.

But there is no question he is vastly overrated by the general population.

Edited January 28, 2006 by johnagrandy

[Dan Gould]

Why do I feel I am back in that Dexter thread, only now its, "you are over-valuing one well-known guy at the expense of my heroes, so cut it out!"

Herbie isn't "over-rated" because your average pop music fan knows who he is.

Ray Charles COULDN'T BE "over-rated".

And B.B. King isn't a "WAS" yet.

[AllenLowe]

Miles INVENTED hard bop - the longer lines, the chordal vamps, the more open-ended feeling - he was the FIRST -

[AllenLowe]

"You can NOT be serious! "

oh - I thought you meant Cal Lamply -

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

"You can NOT be serious! "

oh - I thought you meant Cal Lamply -

MG

[johnagrandy]

Why do I feel I am back in that Dexter thread, only now its, "you are over-valuing one well-known guy at the expense of my heroes, so cut it out!"

Herbie isn't "over-rated" because your average pop music fan knows who he is.

Ray Charles COULDN'T BE "over-rated".

And B.B. King isn't a "WAS" yet.

Maybe you need to buy a lot more music by a lot more musicians. And check out a lot more live music. Cats don't obtain stardom just on the basis of talent, there are a lot of "other factors" at work.

Ever heard of Henry Butler ? John Ellis ? Will Bernard ? Peter Apfelbaum ? Steve Bernstein ? Josh Roseman ?

Phenoms from the 70s scene: Did Pete Cosey or Azar Lawrence ever obtain any fame ?

And what if all those amazing dudes had never made it out of Cuba ? And there's probably scores upon scores of jaw-dropping players in Brazil.

There's some Balkan dude I can't remember the name of whose plays improvizational music literally all day long every day, stopping only for meals and sleep. He's been doing it for 40 years and effectively invented a unique musical form.

And what about Flamenco ? Are we only supposed to listen to Paco de Lucia and not learn about anyone else ?

What about guys like Larry Vukovich (KK's house pianist) who has played with very many of the greats but no one has ever heard of outside of hardcore jazz circles ?

What about all the guys who quit the business 'cause they couldn't make any bread ?

What are we supposed to do, spend our entire paychecks buying every single recording with Miles on it because the critical jazz community and the mainstream media considers him the unquestioned XXL superlative heavyweight genius of 20th century jazz ?

Oh, and if it's a duo including John Mayer with a jazz great it must be really really good , right ? Especially if they're playing the music of Ray Charles.

I listened to so much Miles, 'cause I thought I was supposed to, that I don't even wanna hear "My Funny Valentine" ever again. Not even on Valentine's Day.

Miles only did genius level work in the late 60s and early 70s. The rest of his work in various genres over the years is outclassed by a number of other, superior, players.

Edited January 28, 2006 by johnagrandy

[Dan Gould]

No one says that you're supposed to buy everything Miles recorded and listen to nothing else. Why you think this is being said or implied is completely beyond me.

And just because B.B. King is "the" blues singer/guitarist among the masses doesn't mean that he shouldn't be "the" blues singer/guitarist because of his Crown/Modern/etc. work.

And before you accuse me of being some sort of Miles defender, let me tell you this:

I stopped listening to Miles before the second Quintet.

I'll bet I have more Lee Morgan recordings than you do.

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

I'll bet I have more Lee Morgan recordings than you do.

Yah boo sucks

MG

[Larry Kart]

Something that I think accounted for a good deal of Miles' broad popularity (more so at some times than others, but once he got over the hump...) was the implicit romanticism of much of his music -- both in terms of the music itself and the arguably inseparable aura of Miles the personality/public figure. I know that "romanticism" is a term that cries out for precise definition, but rather than make the attempt right now, I'll throw out a few examples and analogies: 1) Sinatra in his hey-day "in terms of the music itself and the arguably inseparable aura of the personality/public figure," the way one at once felt and identified with Sinatra's romantic message and felt the sway of his persona; 2) any number of Miles' Harmon-muted ballads from the '50s, the later, bolder open-horn performances of the same or similar tunes that played off this aura of whispered tough-tender intimacy, plus the Miles-Gil Evans projects that arguably were in this vein ("Miles Ahead," "Porgy and Bess," "Sketches of Spain"); 3) the whole image (at once self-cultivated and echoed by lots of fans and musical colleagues) of Miles as "an endlessly fruitful creator of new styles" (to quote from something I once wrote) and/or even the dominant shape-shifting musical intellect of his times. The first part of (3) certainly came to the fore with the Shorter-Hancock-Carter-Williams quintet and extended to or close to the very end (though we can argue about when, where, and if [ever] the image and the quality of the music itself began to diverge), but remember too that going back to the eventually broadly influential "Birth of the Cool" band, Miles had a way of gathering up and giving focus to the efforts of others, with the whole then adding to or being filtered through his own burgeoning aura as a style-shaper/tastemaker (also see here, in relation to the Coltrane-Garland quintet, Miles' use/benediction of Ahmad Jamal).

[marcello]

I remember seeing a New Yorker cartoon from the 60's that had a man sitting on a bed talking to his lover on the phone: " I was listening to Miles playing My Funny Valentine and I thought of you".

[md655321]

Why do I feel I am back in that Dexter thread, only now its, "you are over-valuing one well-known guy at the expense of my heroes, so cut it out!"

Herbie isn't "over-rated" because your average pop music fan knows who he is.

Ray Charles COULDN'T BE "over-rated".

And B.B. King isn't a "WAS" yet.

Maybe you need to buy a lot more music by a lot more musicians. And check out a lot more live music. Cats don't obtain stardom just on the basis of talent, there are a lot of "other factors" at work.

So basically you are upset that people become stars? Or are you just upset that your personal preferences become stars?

You claim that Miles doesnt move you like Lee or Woody, so you dont understand why he is more popular. But that is just you. A great many serious jazz fans will still tell you Miles is the best. We arent talking neophytes without Woody Shaw records here. Same goes with BB King. I can name you 100 great blues guitar players that the average person has never heard or heard of. But I can name a single one better than BB King. Just because he isnt your personal preference, doesnt make him overrated. Is it annoying that people love Miles but dont know Lee? Of course it is, but that doesnt make Miles any less good, or less deserving of popularity. Look at Reggae, EVERYONE knows Bob Marley. But barely anyone knows anyone else in reggae. Does that make Bob overrated? Absolutely not, because he is the greatest. His fame came from talent, same as BB, same as Ray Charles, Same as Herbie. You simply cannot deny their abilities.

Now, if you want to complain about how everyone has heard of Wynton or John Mayer, then we have agreement. But if you cant see why Miles is more popular than Lee Morgan, then you simply arent paying attention.

[clifford_thornton]

Another two cents:

I used to work at a liquor store as a college undergraduate, and strangely enough, we had a turntable in the store. I'd bring in records from time to time and listen while sitting behind the counter. One evening, I was listening to trumpeter Jacques Coursil's Black Suite, a very spare recording of somber, Bill Dixon-inspired music. This rather cute girl was shopping, and asked "hey, is this Miles Davis?" I told her no, and that it was Jacques Coursil, handed her the cover or whatever, and of course that blew her mind - probably because she had assumed "jazz trumpet = Miles" without knowing what else was out there. Needless to say, she did keep coming back to the store...

I'll certainly say that having the idea of Miles as a reference point is a good one if someone can go beyond it - but then we're talking sociology rather than something inherent in his work.

[Guest]

larry kart i like your last post

[AllenLowe]

per Larry, I think we can trace some benchmark changes in the music to Miles, or at least as related to Miles's influence - bebop playing has a certain arcing density to its lines, a way in which the improvised melody tends to come back upon itself as the line moves in relation to the chord; one thing that Miles was getting at as early a the Savoy/Bird recordings was a certain lengthening of the line - a way of playing in which the line extends out and not necessarily back as in typical triadic improvising. We hear this, as well, in Dodo Marmarosa's playing - and I think this is a precursor to both modality and hard bop, in which some of the harmonic density of bebop was being reduced to longer-held chords/scales. In a way this also predicts Coltrane, who had similar ideas, though they were expressed quite differently. And it predicts what a lot of the more radical improvisers of the 1950s were trying -

[johnagrandy]

I'll bet I have more Lee Morgan recordings than you do.

You can't. I have everything.

[montg]

Allen, I pretty much follow your point in the last post but could you (or someone) help me understand what

typical triadic improvising means?.

From the various posts, it seem that a somewhat unique confluence of factors propelled Miles to the top: talent (undeniable), vision, promotion, and a lyrical way of phrasing that somehow communicates (as Lon said). What a rare combination, no wonder there's been no 'new Miles' since

[johnagrandy]

Look at Reggae, EVERYONE knows Bob Marley. But barely anyone knows anyone else in reggae. Does that make Bob overrated? Absolutely not, because he is the greatest.

How do you know he's the greatest ? He's the most well-known, but how do you know he's the greatest ?

[Guest akanalog]

hmmm. but what does "the greatest" mean?

these aren't superheros here.

i agree about marley but you are talking about quality here and that is a personal thing.

how can we judge "greatest"?

muhammed ali said he was the greatest of all time-i guess he was the best boxer for a while-but he got to prove that in a ring. musicians can't prove any of this.

[7/4]

hmmm. but what does "the greatest" mean?

these aren't superheros here.

i agree about marley but you are talking about quality here and that is a personal thing.

how can we judge "greatest"?

muhammed ali said he was the greatest of all time-i guess he was the best boxer for a while-but he got to prove that in a ring. musicians can't prove any of this.

Art is not sports.