What Young Lion records will hold up?

[ghost of miles]

I was programming a show today and decided to play some Roy Hargrove...ended up using "When We Were One" from WITH TENORS OF OUR TIME, a CD I still like to listen to from time to time. Perhaps that's not a good example of a Young Lion record, since a number of "Old Lions" came to that particular party... but just curious if other folks here think might make the historical cut from the 1985-1995 era.

[Free For All]

Probably Wynton's Black Codes. Although it is quite derivative of Miles' second quintet it still seems to hold up well on its own merit.

[John Tapscott]

Definitely this one by brother Branford

Probably this one by Antonio Hart

Perhaps this one by Roy Hargrove

At least they're a few of my favorite recordings from that time period by the players we thought of as the "young lions" (though that was more a marketing strategy than anything else, since every decade has young up and coming players, some of whom pan out, while others don't - whatever happened to Christopher Hollyday?)

[Aggie87]

Who actually qualifies as Young Lions? Wynton, Branford & Roy Hargrove, ok. Who else? Tain Watts? Kenny Kirkland? Kenny Garrett?

[ghost of miles]

Who actually qualifies as Young Lions? Wynton, Branford & Roy Hargrove, ok. Who else? Tain Watts? Kenny Kirkland? Kenny Garrett?

I'm thinking pretty much of any young jazz musician who was marketed that way between, say, 1985 and 1995... James Carter and Nicholas Payton probably among the last wave.

[king ubu]

Still my favourite Young Lion disc:

I wasn't aware of the term having been in use back then before I got the VeeJay Mosaics (got them when they ran low). Is this a very standard term, also in use outside of jazz music? Because inside the jazz realms, nowadays it clearly suggests the guys you've been mentioning, and has become somewhat of a historic term, since these guys aren't all that young any longer, yet after them there has been no talk of young lions anymore...

[sal]

I liked Christian McBride's first two albums "Gettin To It" and "Number Two Express". Not sure how well they will hold up, but I still enjoy them both. Good, straight ahead jazz with feeling.

Edited February 27, 2006 by sal

[GA Russell]

Sal, thanks for reminding me about Christian McBride's Number Two Express. It had been a while since I had listened to it, and I enjoyed it this evening. Good album!

[JSngry]

Rodney Kendrick - Dance, World, Dance & Last Chance for Common Sense. Neither are "perfect" by any stretch of the imagination, but that works in their favor, I think. You don't know what you're going to hear before you hear it.

I always got the impression that Kendrick was somewhat of an unwilling "Young Lion". Good for him.

[JSngry]

Of course, the real Young Lion in those days was Steve Coleman, but...

[paul secor]

Don't know if Chico Freeman qualifies. His 'Morning Prayer' sounded pretty good the last time I listened, but that was several years ago.

[Chuck Nessa]

Nothing. For these folks the "art" had ended and they found places to work.

That opinion gives them the "benefit of the doubt" they had a clue.

[ejp626]

I think Joshua Redman was definitely overhyped when he hit the scene in the early 1990s. Hard to say if any of his early albums will hold up. But I think he has retreated from that a lot, and I definitely like his work with the SF Jazz Collective.

I think Osby's Invisible Hand will definitely hold up -- from roughly the same time period -- but he wasn't really marketed as a Young Lion, unless you count being part of Blue Note's New Directions band.

[Kalo]

Rodney Kendrick - Dance, World, Dance & Last Chance for Common Sense. Neither are "perfect" by any stretch of the imagination, but that works in their favor, I think. You don't know what you're going to hear before you hear it.

I always got the impression that Kendrick was somewhat of an unwilling "Young Lion". Good for him.

I never thought of Kendrick as a "Young Lion" but he does fit the criteria. I agree about those albums, though, especially Dance, World, Dance. His trio session We Don't Die We Multiply is pretty great listening, too. I hear a lot of Ellington, Monk, and Weston in Kendrick's approach to playing and composition.

Of course, the real Young Lion in those days was Steve Coleman, but...

Which Steve Coleman records do you recommend? I have only Rhythm in Mind (RCA/Novus) from 1992, which is a knock-out, fully living up to its eclectic personnel: Von Freeman, Kenny Wheeler, Kevin Eubanks, Tommy Flanagan, Dave Holland, Ed Blackwell, and Marvin "Smitty" Smith. (Yeah, some old lions mixed in there.)

Edited February 28, 2006 by Kalo

[Guest akanalog]

i have eyed that kenny kirkland GRP album a few times. it's at the used store. never heard it though.

also talking about chico freeman, his OJC album from 1981? 1982? does have wynton marsalis on it so that might be young-lionish. it's pretty good.

[Dave James]

Speaking of Roy Hargrove, "The Tokyo Sessions" on Novus is a burner. I think Antonio Hart is on this one along with a Japanese rhythm section that really holds its own. Good stuff.

I'm also partial to an early Harper Brothers albums called "Artistry". They do a kick ass version of "Yessir, That's My Baby" on that one.

Other than that, not too much from The Young Lions movement continues to resonate.

Up over and out.

[ghost of miles]

Speaking of Roy Hargrove, "The Tokyo Sessions" on Novus is a burner. I think Antonio Hart is on this one along with a Japanese rhythm section that really holds its own. Good stuff.

I have that one too, but haven't listened to it in a long, long time. Will have to pull it out again... supposedly Hargrove's got a straightahead CD coming out soon.

[Hot Ptah]

i have eyed that kenny kirkland GRP album a few times. it's at the used store. never heard it though.

also talking about chico freeman, his OJC album from 1981? 1982? does have wynton marsalis on it so that might be young-lionish. it's pretty good.

Chico Freeman was established before the Young Lion movement, with several albums on India Navigation and other labels. Whether he still qualifies as a Young Lion, I have no opinion.

As for his album with Wynton Marsalis--as a student journalist (using that term very loosely) I had an opportunity to interview Wynton Marsalis in the spring of 1982. He told me that he did not enjoy recording that album because "Chico Freeman did not know the changes to his own tunes! He did not know the changes to his own tunes!" Wynton was quite emotional about it.

[kh1958]

i have eyed that kenny kirkland GRP album a few times. it's at the used store. never heard it though.

also talking about chico freeman, his OJC album from 1981? 1982? does have wynton marsalis on it so that might be young-lionish. it's pretty good.

Chico Freeman was established before the Young Lion movement, with several albums on India Navigation and other labels. Whether he still qualifies as a Young Lion, I have no opinion.

As for his album with Wynton Marsalis--as a student journalist (using that term very loosely) I had an opportunity to interview Wynton Marsalis in the spring of 1982. He told me that he did not enjoy recording that album because "Chico Freeman did not know the changes to his own tunes! He did not know the changes to his own tunes!" Wynton was quite emotional about it.

I'd rather listen to Chico Freeman than Wynton. I saw Mr. Freeman perform live a couple of years ago, in a group with Geri Allen, Richard Davis and Andrew Cyrille--that was assuredly better than anything I've ever heard from Wynton Marsalis.

[relyles]

I saw Mr. Freeman perform live a couple of years ago, in a group with Geri Allen, Richard Davis and Andrew Cyrille--that was assuredly better than anything I've ever heard from Wynton Marsalis.

I would love to hear something by that collection of talent. Years ago I caught a David Murray set at the Village Vanguard with the identical rhythm section that really blew me away.

[Hot Ptah]

i have eyed that kenny kirkland GRP album a few times. it's at the used store. never heard it though.

also talking about chico freeman, his OJC album from 1981? 1982? does have wynton marsalis on it so that might be young-lionish. it's pretty good.

Chico Freeman was established before the Young Lion movement, with several albums on India Navigation and other labels. Whether he still qualifies as a Young Lion, I have no opinion.

As for his album with Wynton Marsalis--as a student journalist (using that term very loosely) I had an opportunity to interview Wynton Marsalis in the spring of 1982. He told me that he did not enjoy recording that album because "Chico Freeman did not know the changes to his own tunes! He did not know the changes to his own tunes!" Wynton was quite emotional about it.

I'd rather listen to Chico Freeman than Wynton. I saw Mr. Freeman perform live a couple of years ago, in a group with Geri Allen, Richard Davis and Andrew Cyrille--that was assuredly better than anything I've ever heard from Wynton Marsalis.

I agree completely. I recall an evening when Chico blew the roof off the place, as a member of Jack DeJohnette's group (other members were John Purcell and bassist Peter Warren). That was much more exciting than anything I have ever heard by Wynton.

In the same 1982 interview, Wynton told me that he had studied 20th century European classical music at Julliard and thus "knew" that the compositions of Joseph Jarman, Roscoe Mitchell and Anthony Braxton were "the worst thing that could possibly happen to jazz." That quote got into my published review. Right after that a musician wrote to the paper, stating that she was familiar with Wynton's course work at Julliard and that he had not studied 20th century classical music. I have no idea if she was correct.

Wynton looked very young in the spring of 1982, I remember that, but he still had very strong opinions and was fearless about spouting them off.

[kh1958]

Those Jack DeJohnette "Special Edition" groups in the 1980s really were special.

The two editions I got to see had John Purcell, Howard Johnson and Rufus Reid, with either Marty Ehrlich or David Murray.

[relyles]

Back to the subject at hand, Kenny Garrett's Triology is a very special recording IMO.

[Aggie87]

Back to the subject at hand, Kenny Garrett's Triology is a very special recording IMO.

I agree - I like both that one and "Pursuance" alot! I wasn't sure whether he was a Young Lion, which is why I asked originally.

[sal]

Yeah, I never considered Kenny Garret a Young Lion. He always stood out from the pack....a much more original player, with a very unique sound coming from his horn. I like "Triology" and "Persuance" as well.

Edited March 2, 2006 by sal