Bird On Tenor? (Jackie McLean's on Bari!)

[JSngry]

Check it out- on The Chronological Classics Blues & Rhythm Series disc The Chronological Charlie Singleton 1949-1953 , there's a session dated New York, c. late 1949 for the Star label (Star 719, to be precise), and the personnel is given as:

Lowell Lewis-t

Charlie Singleton-as

"Chan"-ts

Jackie McLean-bar

Gildo Mahones-p

Martin Rivera-b

John Godfrey-dr

Linwood Sutton-v

None of the saxes save Singleton solos, but besides this probably being McLean's recording debut (if only as a section player), what are the odds that "Chan" is actually Bird? When did him & Jackie first hook up?

BTW, the personnel on this disc includes cats like Lou Donaldson, Lucky Thompson, Ray Copeland, Herbie Nichols, Jesse Drakes, Buster Cooper, Pee Wee Moore, Charlie Rouse (also on bari!), Ram Ramirez, & Jimmy Cobb, but the music itself is very "par for the course", and, iirc, only Donaldson has a single solo spot. Everybody else just plays parts, and pretty basic ones at that. Talk about wasted opportunities!

Any further info and/or speculation would be welcome, especially how a somewhat mediocre talent like Singleton seemed to always get such top-shelf players on his records on labels like Star, Lee, Atlas, and Saturn (from 1950, so not the Sun Ra label).

As always, thanks in advance!

[JSngry]

Oh, yeah -

Let me save Jim the trouble of posting the Obligatory CDU Link.

[JSngry]

The plot thickens...

An exceprt form the AMG REVIEW OF THIS CD:

Born in Kansas City around 1930, alto and tenor saxophonist Charlie Singleton went to the same school as Charlie Parker had a few years earlier — Lincoln High — and even studied with Bird's music teacher Leo Davis.

Hmmm...

[AllenLowe]

I knew John Godfrey in the 1970s in NYC - he went by the name Sir John Godfrey (Freddie Redd named a tune after him) - excellent, if inconsistent, drummer -

[Dan Gould]

I knew John Godfrey in the 1970s in NYC - he went by the name Sir John Godfrey (Freddie Redd named a tune after him) - excellent, if inconsistent, drummer -

How exactly can one be "excellent" yet "inconsistent"?

Doesn't the former negate the possibility of the latter?

[Daniel A]

How exactly can one be "excellent" yet "inconsistent"?

Doesn't the former negate the possibility of the latter?

I suppose it's a bit like, say, Kenny Dorham.

[ghost of miles]

I'm pretty sure I remember Jackie mentioning this in an interview... Spellman? The Mosaic set? I'll dig around and see if I can find the allusion to this session.

[AllenLowe]

well, I was not going to be too specific, but John wasn't the first musician I knew who was inconsistent - let's just say that, if his pot supply was good that week, his time might waver somewhat - and trust me, it's very possible to be excellent but undependable/inconsistent - if we had time I could mention about 20 others -

on a good night he was a quintessential modern jazz drummer - sensitive to the music, swinging, full of very creative backgrounds - on a bad night he changed time, lost his place, played too loud - sad but true -

Edited April 1, 2006 by AllenLowe

[brownie]

I'm pretty sure I remember Jackie mentioning this in an interview... Spellman? The Mosaic set? I'll dig around and see if I can find the allusion to this session.

This is probably what you're referring to:

From David H. Rosenthal 'Hard Bop' Oxford University Press 1992.

Quote from McLean:

"The first record I made was not with Miles. I made a rhythm-and-blues piece with Charlie Singleton's band called 'Camel Walkin' where I played baritone sax, no solo."

If Bird had been taking part in the session, I am sure McLean would have mentioned this!

Edited April 1, 2006 by brownie

[ghost of miles]

I'm pretty sure I remember Jackie mentioning this in an interview... Spellman? The Mosaic set? I'll dig around and see if I can find the allusion to this session.

This is probably what you're referring to:

From David H. Rosenthal 'Hard Bop' Oxford University Press 1992.

Quote from McLean:

"The first record I made was not with Miles. I made a rhythm-and-blues piece with Charlie Singleton's band called 'Camel Walkin' where I played baritone sax, no solo."

If Bird had been taking part in the session, I am sure McLean would have mentioned this!

Brownie, right... and there's some more mention of it in Spellman as well. The paragraph in full:

In 1948, a blues tenor saxophonist named Charlie Singleton met Jackie on the street and asked him about making a record. As a result, Jackie on baritone saxophone with the Singleton orchestra, recorded a song which was a hit in black communities all over America, "Do the Camel Walk." The other side was a blues, "Hard Times Are Coming Baby," and Jackie says today that its title made it one of the most prophetic records he has ever made.

That last line... some to go with the anger and the grief. Not just an incredible musician, but what a human being.

[JSngry]

If Bird had been taking part in the session, I am sure McLean would have mentioned this!

Perhaps, but not necessarily...

[bertrand]

I knew about this date, but never noticed before the presence of 'Chan', or didn't make the connection. Of course, Bird springs to mind.

I have a line on some 'ornithologists' - I'll ask around.

Jim, this personnel info come from the CD, correct?

Bertrand.

[bertrand]

Allen,

Is Godfrey still living? He plays on Redd's last BN session. What is the name of the tune Freddie named for him? Where does it appear?

Thanks,

Bertrand.

[AllenLowe]

I believe the pieces is called "Sir John," but that's from memory (I actually remember talking to Redd on the phone when I visited Sweden years ago, and we discussed Godfrey) - I haven't seen Godfrey since, maybe, 1982; I did inquire about him a few years ago and was told that he had died, but I'm not sure if this is true -

[AllenLowe]

to add, it's a bit vague in my mind, but I think that's the name of the tune - is Redd still alive? As I recall he had very fond memories of Godfrey -

[JSngry]

I knew about this date, but never noticed before the presence of 'Chan', or didn't make the connection. Of course, Bird springs to mind.

I have a line on some 'ornithologists' - I'll ask around.

Jim, this personnel info come from the CD, correct?

Bertrand.

Correct.

[bertrand]

Freddie Redd is still around, but living in a trailer park in LA with no bread and no phone. I have a PO Box for him.

He has been occasionally playing around. There was a gig around Thanksgiving (search the live shows forum).

I've been thinking about ways to get him more gigs. I am pursuing one idea, but it's a slow process. Anybody else have ideas?

Bertrand.

[AllenLowe]

that'a a drag - Bertrand, has anyone thought of trying to revive The Connection? I'll bet you could get some other musicians who would be quite happy to work with Redd on a new version of the play -

[bertrand]

Allen,

That might actually fit in with my idea, or complement it.

I'll follow up on this. Too bad Freddie is not in D.C. anymore (he was in the 80s). We could probably have made something happen a long time ago.

I'll talk to Rene about it when things settle down.

Now enough hijacking of Jim's thread on my part - when I've made some progress, I'll start a new one.

Bertrand.

[JSngry]

Hijack away!

Mine is a fairly static question.

[ghost of miles]

It makes you think... we are all here mourning Jackie McLean, as well we should be... and yet one of his compatriots is still alive and not in a very good situation. Bertrand, yeah, please keep us posted... I don't know yet what I could do to help, but I'd love to, if there's any way possible.

[ep1str0phy]

that'a a drag - Bertrand, has anyone thought of trying to revive The Connection? I'll bet you could get some other musicians who would be quite happy to work with Redd on a new version of the play -

An interesting idea, I'd say--but hasn't the play dated a bit? I'm not entirely sure that the contemporary relevance of The Connection extends beyond its reputation/history; I'd be interested in seeing how this gets executed without playing the whole thing off like a mere repertory piece (a re-envisioning, perhaps?).

I heard about the Redd gig in passing, couldn't make it out there... how did it come together, anyway? Moreover, how has he been getting gigs these past years? I'd think the savvier crowd would be a little quicker to the offers.

Edited April 3, 2006 by ep1str0phy

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

I believe the pieces is called "Sir John," but that's from memory (I actually remember talking to Redd on the phone when I visited Sweden years ago, and we discussed Godfrey) - I haven't seen Godfrey since, maybe, 1982; I did inquire about him a few years ago and was told that he had died, but I'm not sure if this is true -

A tune by that name appears on Blue Mitchell's "Blue's moods" and Don Patterson's "Opus de Don" (CD "Dem New York Dues"), on which Blue played. In both cases the tune is credited to Blue Mitchell.

Is this a different tune, perhaps?

MG

[AllenLowe]

somehow I think it's the same tune, but I will make inquiries and report back -

the Connection, whatever it's date, is an excellent play - probably the only decent thing ever written by Jack Gelber - I think it would go very well -

Edited April 3, 2006 by AllenLowe

[Allan Songer]

to add, it's a bit vague in my mind, but I think that's the name of the tune - is Redd still alive? As I recall he had very fond memories of Godfrey -

Freddie Redd is alive and gigging in Los Angeles. He played several dates in the Fall at local clubs but nothing in the past few weeks. He still plays BEAUTIFULLY.