BFT#36 answers

[tooter]

Two more primary baritonists that just came to my mind:

Bill Graham (with Gillespie in the early 1950's)

Pee Wee Moore (with James Moody and with Gillespie's 1950's big band)

And what was the name of the guy who played in the Gillespie movie from the Cuban tour?

Another 1928 (PWM)!

Trying to look up movie.

[tooter]

Sayyd Abdul Al-Khabyy, not one of my favorite Gillespie sidemen, I'm afraid.

He used to have the annoying habit of giving the audience a little salute after each solo. His son Nasyr, also played drums with Birks along with his father.

There's an entry at AMG but no details. Google produces nothing at all. Added to list but can you supply any more info? Nationality? Year of birth? What kind of salute? Anything like Billie's?

[marcello]

Abdul Al-Khabyyr

Sorry, I spelled it wrong the first time.

As far as the salute goes, after his solo he would smile and pop off a little salute off his forehead and maybe a little bow. Now, I guess that would be O.K. once in a while, but he would do it for every solo!

I think I saw this edition of the band two or three times.

I also saw him with Mercer Ellington before then. Still with the little salute!

Edited May 28, 2006 by marcello

[tooter]

Abdul Al-Khabyyr

Sorry, I spelled it wrong the first time.

As far as the salute goes, after his solo he would smile and pop off a little salute off his forehead and maybe a little bow. Now, I guess that would be O.K. once in a while, but he would do it for every solo!

I think I saw this edition of the band two or three times.

I also saw him with Mercer Ellington before then. Still with the little salute!

Interesting read, marcello - thanks for the reference. I can't see any mention of baritone in there so is it safe to say he is a doubler? I've left the * out for him. Got year of birth from there though.

Nationality is another source of confusion - lots of these players have moved around. For instance, Bob Efford was born in the UK but has of course been in the USA for a long long time now. Ronnie Ross was born in India but counted as UK for the list.

[tooter]

I've added a few doublers but very far from all - takes too long. But here's the list as it stands now.

*Primary baritone players

1. 1910 Harry Carney USA*

2. 1910 Jack Washington USA*

3. 1911 Chuck Gentry USA*

4. 1916 Charlie Fowlkes USA*

5. 1918 Bill Graham USA*

6. 1921 Jimmy Giuffre USA

7. 1922 Cecil Payne USA*

8. 1922 Danny Bank USA*

9. 1923 Serge Chaloff USA*

10. 1924 Bill Perkins USA

11. 1925 Leo Parker USA*

12. 1925 Sahib Shihab USA*

13. 1926 Sol Schlinger USA*

14. 1926 Michel de Villers France*

15. 1927 Gerry Mulligan USA*

16. 1928 Jack Nimitz USA*

17. 1928 Lars Gullin Sweden*

18. 1928 Harry Klein UK*

19. 1928 Bob Efford UK*

20. 1928 Gene Allen USA*

21. 1928 Bob Gordon USA*

22. 1928 Pee Wee Moore USA*

23. 1929 Joe Temperley UK*

24. 1929 Pat Patrick USA*

25. 1930 Pepper Adams USA*

26. 1930 Bill Hood*

27. 1931 Gil Melle USA*

28. 1933 Ronnie Ross UK*

29. 1933 Charles Davis USA*

30. 1935 Abdul Al-Khabyyr Canada

31. 1936 Nick Brignola USA*

32. 1940 Hamiet Bluitt USA*

33. 1941 Ronnie Cuber USA*

34. 1944 John Surman UK*

35. 1944 Turk Mauro USA

36. 1945 Gunnar Bergsten Sweden*

37. 1950 Jim Hartog USA*

38. 1956 Gary Smulyan USA*

39. Circa1966 Claire Daly USA*

40. ? Bob Gioga USA*

41. ? Tate Houston USA*

42. ? Jack Sharpe UK*

43. ? Roger Rosenberg ?*

44. ? Trevor Koehler USA*

45. ? Eddie de Verteuil USA*

[king ubu]

Rodney, you should add Stephen Schorn to your list! He's a great baritone player (also doubles on bass sax and various clarinets, but I'm quite safe that he can be rated as mainly baritone player). I am not sure if you'd enjoy the discs he did with Nils Wogram, but he's also a very solid big band player (with George Gruntz, Peter Herbolzheimer, the WDR and NDR radio big bands...)

Here's his website: http://www.baritone-sax.com/

Also this chap, Herwig Gradischnig, main baritone man of the Vienna Art Orchestra since 1993 and a more than able soloist: profile on VAO website

He too doubles, and I think I have him on disc on tenor sax, too, but again I'd say it's rather safe to rate him as baritone man, since that's what he's been doing for more than a decade with Rüegg's VAO.

[couw]

also:

Manfred Schulze, who played with the Ulrich Gumpert and Hannes Zerbe bands and played on some FMP releases, also under his own name. He was responsible for the "Manfred" part of the Manfred-Ludwig Sextett with Ernst-Ludwig Petrowsky. No recordings exist of this version of the Sextett, however. The only available music by the Sextett has on baritone...

Wolf Hudalla, who probably has the coolest name of them all and who started out in the band of Heinz Hänsch, later to join the Eberhard Weise band, together with E-L. Petrowsky. His recorded work is available on one singel CD...

Both players stem from the former GDR.

[mikeweil]

To represent West German players, I would like to opt for Günter Kronberg (1926-1977) - his main horn was alto, but he played lots of mean baritone when needed.

[tooter]

Rodney, you should add Stephen Schorn to your list! He's a great baritone player (also doubles on bass sax and various clarinets, but I'm quite safe that he can be rated as mainly baritone player). I am not sure if you'd enjoy the discs he did with Nils Wogram, but he's also a very solid big band player (with George Gruntz, Peter Herbolzheimer, the WDR and NDR radio big bands...)

Here's his website: http://www.baritone-sax.com/

Also this chap, Herwig Gradischnig, main baritone man of the Vienna Art Orchestra since 1993 and a more than able soloist: profile on VAO website

He too doubles, and I think I have him on disc on tenor sax, too, but again I'd say it's rather safe to rate him as baritone man, since that's what he's been doing for more than a decade with Rüegg's VAO.

That's redressed the imbalance of Europeans, which was very much in favour of the UK, and more to go I see. I was certainly aware that continental Europe was under-represented and was thinking of adding Flurin Casura as nobody from Switzerland yet

Have I got the details right? I ran into a bit of language difficulty.

[tooter]

also:

Manfred Schulze, who played with the Ulrich Gumpert and Hannes Zerbe bands and played on some FMP releases, also under his own name. He was responsible for the "Manfred" part of the Manfred-Ludwig Sextett with Ernst-Ludwig Petrowsky. No recordings exist of this version of the Sextett, however. The only available music by the Sextett has on baritone...

Wolf Hudalla, who probably has the coolest name of them all and who started out in the band of Heinz Hänsch, later to join the Eberhard Weise band, together with E-L. Petrowsky. His recorded work is available on one singel CD...

Both players stem from the former GDR.

Added to the list - see below. Couldn't find a year of birth for Wolf Hudalla and not sure right on Manfred Schulze - 1930?

[tooter]

To represent West German players, I would like to opt for Günter Kronberg (1926-1977) - his main horn was alto, but he played lots of mean baritone when needed.

Added too - full details here -good!

[tooter]

Expanded list of 50!

*Primary baritone players

1. 1910 Harry Carney USA*

2. 1910 Jack Washington USA*

3. 1911 Chuck Gentry USA*

4. 1916 Charlie Fowlkes USA*

5. 1918 Bill Graham USA*

6. 1921 Jimmy Giuffre USA

7. 1922 Cecil Payne USA*

8. 1922 Danny Bank USA*

9. 1923 Serge Chaloff USA*

10. 1924 Bill Perkins USA

11. 1925 Leo Parker USA*

12. 1925 Sahib Shihab USA*

13. 1926 Sol Schlinger USA*

14. 1926 Günter Kronberg Germany

15. 1926 Michel de Villers France*

16. 1927 Gerry Mulligan USA*

17. 1928 Jack Nimitz USA*

18. 1928 Lars Gullin Sweden*

19. 1928 Harry Klein UK*

20. 1928 Bob Efford UK*

21. 1928 Gene Allen USA*

22. 1928 Bob Gordon USA*

23. 1928 Pee Wee Moore USA*

24. 1929 Joe Temperley UK*

25. 1929 Pat Patrick USA*

26. 1930 Pepper Adams USA*

27. 1930 Bill Hood*

28. 1931 Gil Melle USA*

29. 1933 Ronnie Ross UK*

30. 1933 Charles Davis USA*

31. 1934 Manfred Schulze Germany*

32. 1935 Abdul Al-Khabyyr Canada

33. 1936 Nick Brignola USA*

34. 1940 Hamiet Bluitt USA*

35. 1941 Ronnie Cuber USA*

36. 1944 John Surman UK*

37. 1944 Turk Mauro USA

38. 1945 Gunnar Bergsten Sweden*

39. 1950 Jim Hartog USA*

40. 1956 Gary Smulyan USA*

41. 1959 Claire Daly USA*

42. 1967 Stephen Schorn Germany*

43. 1968 Herwig Gradischnig Austria

44. ? Bob Gioga USA*

45. ? Tate Houston USA*

46. ? Jack Sharpe UK*

47. ? Roger Rosenberg ?*

48. ? Trevor Koehler USA*

49. ? Eddie de Verteuil USA*

50. ? Wolf Hudalla Germany*

Edited June 1, 2006 by tooter

[couw]

Added to the list - see below. Couldn't find a year of birth for Wolf Hudalla and not sure right on Manfred Schulze - 1930?

can't find anything on Hudalla either. Schulze was born in 1934 AFAIK.

[tooter]

Added to the list - see below. Couldn't find a year of birth for Wolf Hudalla and not sure right on Manfred Schulze - 1930?

can't find anything on Hudalla either. Schulze was born in 1934 AFAIK.

Okay, call it that. List amended.

[king ubu]

I found this with Google but already lost the link (it was a downloadable .doc file):

A propos du saxophone baryton ...

Bien qu’il possède des qualités exceptionnelles (registre voluptueux, sonorité chaude, profonde et expressive, possibilités dynamiques et harmoniques rares, vélocité et maniabilité aisée pour un instrument de la tessiture grave, …), le saxophone baryton reste méconnu et relativement peu utilisé. Son prix élevé, sa taille un peu encombrante et une « colonne d’air » difficile à maîtriser le desserve probablement.

Beaucoup moins souvent sous les feux de la rampe que ses petits frères, les saxes ténor, alto et soprano, le baryton a cependant eu des ambassadeurs de talent et d’envergure pour faire entendre sa voix.

Tout en haut de la liste, trône Harry CARNEY qui fut un des piliers de l’orchestre de D.Ellington. Considéré à juste titre comme le père de tous les barytons, il suscita un grand nombre de vocations. Dés 1927, il entame un travail de défrichage sur cet instrument et parvient avec élégance et raffinement à lui donner ses lettres de noblesses. A peu près à la même époque et dans sa lignée, Jack Washington tient avec beaucoup de brio le pupitre de baryton dans l’orchestre de C.Basie. Haywood HENRY joue lui chez E.Hawkins et Ernie CACERES, manifeste une belle maîtrise de l’instrument auprès, notamment, de S.Bechet.

Au début des années 40, Serge CHALOFF s’impose comme un soliste d’envergure et le premier baryton de style Bebop avec des idées très novatrices, une sonorité unique et une grande charge émotionnelle. Léo PARKER en 1948 joue lui aussi dans un style Bop mais marqué par le blues, il possédait un gros son et une grande puissance de jeu. Cecil PAYNE, lui, débute sa carrière vers 1945, avec une sonorité chaude et beaucoup d’aisance il joue avec C.Parker, D.Gillespie et R.Weston. Le plus impressionnant de tous est sans doute Pepper ADAMS dont la magnifique sonorité épaisse et tranchante faisait merveille dans tous les contextes de Coltrane à Mingus en passant par Monk ou L.Niehaus.

Commençant à faire parler de lui dans les années 50, Gerry MULLIGAN reste pour la mémoire collective le grand baryton de l’histoire du Jazz, en tout cas le plus populaire. Compositeur prolifique et arrangeur subtil, il fut un instrumentiste au jeu souple et léger mais surtout plus que n’importe qui, il contribuât à émanciper le saxophone baryton et à le faire reconnaître comme voix soliste à part entière. Bob GORDON malheureusement trop tôt disparu (il mourut en 1955 à 27 ans), aurait pu devenir le plus important de sa génération, de sa sonorité nette et claire découle, avec une apparente facilité, une musique logique, séduisante et qui swingue irrésistiblement. Dans un style plus cérébral Gil MELLE est un musicien peu connu mais captivant. Jimmy GIUFFRE avant de se consacrer à la clarinette, était un baryton intéressant et Jack NIMITZ est un bon soliste, tout comme Joe TEMPERLEY l’épigone de Carney. Plus connu comme sax ténor, Bill PERKINS joue du baryton tout en douceur et en lyrisme.

Dans un tout autre style, Hamiet BLUIETT fut un temps considéré comme « le nouveau messie du saxophone baryton ». Une maîtrise parfaite de l’instrument lui permit d’en reculer les limites et certains de ses solos sont un véritable catalogue des différentes sonorités possibles. Pat PATRICK et Charles DAVIS ont souvent joué ensemble chez Sun Ra et sont tout deux d’admirables musiciens, à l’aise dans tous les registres. Sahib SHIHAB connu aussi comme altiste et flûtiste, possède sur le baryton une sonorité incisive et se montre tout comme Jérôme RICHARDSON, un improvisateur digne d’intérêt.

Dans la nouvelle génération Ronnie CUBER est des plus intéressants, servi par une remarquable technique, un foisonnement d’idées et une grande musicalité. Dans les mêmes sphères, Nick BRIGNOLA possède une aisance et une vélocité impressionnante.

Dans la lignée de P.Adams, Gary SMULIAN est un musicien à suivre de près. Un peu moins connu mais tout aussi captivant, Glenn WILSON joue du baryton presque comme un ténor et Denis DiBLASIO semble de plus en plus être quelqu’un avec qui il faut compter. Jim HARTOG joue dans le « 29th Street Saxophone Quartet » et est un modèle de stabilité. Claire DALY est une des rares femmes à jouer du baryton.

De par le monde d’autres voix ont leur importance. Lars GULLIN, figure majeure du Jazz des années 50 en Suède, était un baryton exceptionnel et son fils Peter GULLIN joue avec beaucoup de bonheur le même instrument que son père. John Pal INDERBERG et Paroni PAAKKUNAINEN viennent eux aussi de pays nordiques et possède tout deux une réelle personnalité. En Angleterre George HASLAM joua souvent en duo (avec M.Waldrom) et John SURMAN a su élaborer un concept très personnel dans un style minimaliste et impressionniste. Le hollandais Ton VAN DE GEIJN possède une magnifique maîtrise de l’instrument. L’allemand Thomas ZOLLER a travaillé notamment avec L.Konitz. Le français Michel De VILLERS était, dans les années 50, le grand spécialiste du baryton dans son pays et actuellement ce rôle pourrait bien être tenu par Xavier RICHARDEAU qui, avec une très bonne technique et une belle sonorité, est un musicien des plus attachant.

C’est en Belgique que le saxophone fut inventé et que les toutes premières notes de baryton furent jouées, c’est sur cette terre particulièrement fertile que naquit Jean-Pierre GEBLER figure emblématique du Jazz Belge en général et du baryton en particulier. Avec une certaine nonchalance héritée de Lester Young, il a joué avec J.Pelzer, D.Gordon, C.Baker, G.Mulligan et bien d’autres. Johan VANDENDRISSCHE possède une superbe sonorité et une excellente technique qu’il promène dans différents styles. Bo VAN DER WERF saxophoniste baryton de « Octurne » et du « Brussels Jazz orchestra» joue une musique complexe de belle architecture avec un jeu très personnel.

En point d’orgue, citons rapidement et dans le désordre quelques musiciens moins connus, voir méconnus, mais qui font tous partie de cette petite famille de passionnés que sont les « saxophonistes baryton ». :

Jay CAMERON, Charles TYLER, Turk MAURO, Tate HOUSTON, Eddie DE VERTEUIL, Howard JOHNSON, Fred PIRTLE, Maurice SIMON, Johnny DOVER, William BOUCAYA, Alan BARNES, Charles FOWKLES, Rony VERBIEST, Bill GRAHAM…

Avec tout mon respect et mon admiration…

Alain Cupper

Several names in there that are not yet on the list (Jay Camerion, William Boucaya, Charles Tyler, Maurice Simon... best you pick out the more relevant names yourself, Rodney!

As for swiss baritone players... I cannot come up with anyone whom I'd describe as mainly (or even less exclusively) a barisax player!

There's Werner Lüdi (1936-2000), a much beloved sort of father figure he was, but he played alto as much as baritone, I think. His hat album "Lunatico" is considered a swiss jazz classic.

Urs Blöchlinger (his hat album "Neurotica" being another swiss classic - both albums not yet on CD, by the way) is another alto/baritone player (he also played bass sax, I think).

Beat Blaser works for swiss radio (DRS) and may be the closest thing to a jazz barisax player that comes to my mind right now.

That's all that comes to mind... not sure if any of the above deserves being listed...

Then, if you want to go down another octave, check this out:

[tooter]

So here's the FINAL list. Not doing any more!!!!

*Primary baritone players

1. 1910 Harry Carney USA*

2. 1910 Jack Washington USA*

3. 1911 Chuck Gentry USA*

4. 1911 Ernie Carceres USA*

5. 1916 Charlie Fowlkes USA*

6. 1918 Bill Graham USA*

7. 1920 Jerome Richardson USA

8. 1921 Jimmy Giuffre USA

9. 1921 Tony Scott USA

10. 1922 Cecil Payne USA*

11. 1922 Danny Bank USA*

12. 1923 Serge Chaloff USA*

13. 1924 Bill Perkins USA

14. 1925 Leo Parker USA*

15. 1925 Sahib Shihab USA*

16. 1926 Sol Schlinger USA*

17. 1926 Med Flory USA

18. 1926 Günter Kronberg Germany

19. 1926 Michel de Villers France*

20. 1927 Gerry Mulligan USA*

21. 1927 Bud Shank USA

22. 1928 Jay Cameron USA*

23. 1928 Jack Nimitz USA*

24. 1928 Lars Gullin Sweden*

25. 1928 Harry Klein UK*

26. 1928 Bob Efford UK*

27. 1928 Gene Allen USA*

28. 1928 Bob Gordon USA*

29. 1928 Pee Wee Moore USA*

30. 1929 Maurice Simon USA*

31. 1929 Joe Temperley UK*

32. 1929 Pat Patrick USA*

33. 1930 Pepper Adams USA*

34. 1930 Bill Hood*

35. 1931 Gil Melle USA*

36. 1933 Ronnie Ross UK*

37. 1933 Charles Davis USA*

38. 1934 Manfred Schulze Germany*

39. 1935 Abdul Al-Khabyyr Canada

40. 1936 Nick Brignola USA*

41. 1936 Werner Lüdi Switzerland

42. 1940 Hamiet Bluitt USA*

43. 1941 Ronnie Cuber USA*

44. 1941 Howard Johnson USA

45. 1941 Charles Tyler USA

46. 1944 John Surman UK*

47. 1944 Turk Mauro USA

48. 1945 Gunnar Bergsten Sweden*

49. 1950 Jim Hartog USA*

50. 1955 Marty Erlich USA

51. 1956 Gary Smulyan USA*

52. 1959 Claire Daly USA*

53. 1959 Alan Barnes UK

54. 1959 Scott Robinson USA

55. 1967 Stephen Schorn Germany*

56. 1968 Herwig Gradischnig Austria

57. ? Bob Gioga USA*

58. ? Tate Houston USA*

59. ? Jack Sharpe UK*

60. ? Roger Rosenberg ?*

61. ? Trevor Koehler USA*

62. ? Eddie de Verteuil USA*

63. ? Wolf Hudalla Germany*

64. ? Don Davidson ?*

65. ? Bob Leonard ?*

66. ? Perry White ?*

67. ? William Boucaya France*

68. ? Urs Blöchlinger Switzerland

69. ? Beat Blaser Switzerland

70. ? George Barrow USA*

71. ? Marty Flax USA*

72. ? Per Goldschmidt ?*

73. ? John Williams UK*

74. ? Chris Biscoe UK*

75. ? Musa Kaleem USA

76. ? Rune Falk ?*

[Big Al]

Track 13 = The Chant!!! ARRRGGHH!!!! That's not the version I know; the one I know is the Byrd/Adams version from the Mosaic box and the album of the same name. But still!!! I could kick myself for not knowing that one!

And track 15 isn't St. Thomas. But where else have I heard this one before? Gonna have to do an AMG search on this song. It's like I hear this tinkling piano during the theme or something. Maybe I'm just imagining things.

A great BFT, needless to say!!! Thanks again, Rodney! :tup

[Big Al]

And track 15 isn't St. Thomas. But where else have I heard this one before? Gonna have to do an AMG search on this song. It's like I hear this tinkling piano during the theme or something. Maybe I'm just imagining things.

Ah HAH!!! Trane's version from Coltrane Jazz is what I'm thinking of, complete with piano tinkling towards the end.

Glad we got that taken care of. Now I can sleep in peace tonight. Y'all can go back to whatever it was you were doing before you put your lives on hold to overload Google's server trying to find that song on my behalf.

[tooter]

And track 15 isn't St. Thomas. But where else have I heard this one before? Gonna have to do an AMG search on this song. It's like I hear this tinkling piano during the theme or something. Maybe I'm just imagining things.

Ah HAH!!! Trane's version from Coltrane Jazz is what I'm thinking of, complete with piano tinkling towards the end.

Glad we got that taken care of. Now I can sleep in peace tonight. Y'all can go back to whatever it was you were doing before you put your lives on hold to overload Google's server trying to find that song on my behalf.

Not a tune one hears all that often I guess but a really familiar somehow. Glad to hear you are at peace, Al.

Last post of BFT#36?

[Alexander Hawkins]

Rodney - what do you reckon about Tony Kofi? I don't know his stuff that well, but I guess he, Ben Castle, and Pete Wareham are the first-call bari players (albeit for different types of gig) around at the moment!

[tooter]

Rodney - what do you reckon about Tony Kofi? I don't know his stuff that well, but I guess he, Ben Castle, and Pete Wareham are the first-call bari players (albeit for different types of gig) around at the moment!

I'm completely in the dark about their baritone playing, Red. I've only got a little of Tony on alto (with Gary Crosby) and even less of Ben on tenor. I was impressed by a broadcast I heard of him playing in a quartet led by Bobby Worth in 2000 but I lost some of it. I must look to see what's available. No Pete at all, of any kind - can't remember ever having heard him. Can you tell us more?

Different types of gig? You mean session work?