Amos 'n Andy ca. 1930: What exactly has changed since then?

[fasstrack]

I took home a DVD called Amos and Andy: Check and Double Check. It was cheap and had the Duke Ellington Orchestra, plus it was from 1930. Those three facts sadly don't balance the humiliating buffoonery (sp?) I was embarrassed to watch. Shuffling, scratching, superstitious and frightened, shiftless, dumb black characters (the leads played by whites) getting into 'funny' situations and trying to get out through their dubious wiles. The denoument/wrap-up is when our heroes save the white son of the Georgia plantation owner they worked for (there is a particularly embarrassing scene where Amos breaks down recalling how well 'Mr. Williams' treated him). So the 'boys' as they are referred to throughout, saved the day---meaning the lovable bufoons showed their worth saving whitey's ass---like "Rochester" and so many others.

I read a book recently about the black community around L.A. in the 40s, The Great Black Way. Very good. It gave thumbnails of Eddie Anderson and Pigmeat Markham and the social fabric from whence they sprang and was very illuminating. These things are on my mind:

Look at hip hop, black comedy that's promoted by whites, etc. The performers are making a lot of money, granted, and there are definite signs of some improvement at least economically for some blacks and other ethnic groups. But look at the 'reaction' to Katrina. What, if anything has really changed in this country?

I actually bring this up, I swear, b/c the film brought me down and i want to be proven wrong and hear something positive. Have at it, please.

Edited October 3, 2006 by fasstrack

[Dan Gould]

Please have at it in the Political forum where it belongs.

[fasstrack]

Please have at it in the Political forum where it belongs.

Is that where it belongs? I think not, it's bigger than politics.

But if someone wants to move it I don't care as long as it starts a discussion.

[Dan Gould]

Please have at it in the Political forum where it belongs.

Is that where it belongs? I think not, it's bigger than politics.

But if someone wants to move it I don't care as long as it starts a discussion.

if you want to bring the "Katrina 'reaction'" into it, its obviously political.

You don't have to wait for someone to move it (with the east coast tour kicking off tomorrow, I doubt Jim is paying much attention). All you need do is copy your initial post and paste it into a new thread in the proper forum. Then delete this thread.

[fasstrack]

Please have at it in the Political forum where it belongs.

Is that where it belongs? I think not, it's bigger than politics.

But if someone wants to move it I don't care as long as it starts a discussion.

if you want to bring the "Katrina 'reaction'" into it, its obviously political.

You don't have to wait for someone to move it (with the east coast tour kicking off tomorrow, I doubt Jim is paying much attention). All you need do is copy your initial post and paste it into a new thread in the proper forum. Then delete this thread.

Too much like work. People can do what they want with this. I just put it out there. If they read it even that's enough.

[7/4]

Dan is the police around here. Snap to it.

[md655321]

There is absolutely no difference between Amos and Andy, minstrel shows, and 99.9% of hip-hop on MTV.

Once again, the pursuit of capitalism rears its ugly head.

[fasstrack]

Dan is the police around here. Snap to it.

[fasstrack]

BTW: did anyone else reade that book I mentioned, The Great Black Way? RJ Smith, I believe, or JR......I highly recommend it.

[Guy Berger]

any ya'll think this is a SIMPLE question are putting yr easy-- dare i say priviledged?-- sense of "ethics" far far in front of complex, multivalent, black/white/other realities. don't fool yrself otherwise until ya'll do the research AND talk to the older folks.

Clem,

Can you elaborate?

Guy

[Big Al]

The difference between then and now is simply this: back then, blacks had no choice but to let themselves be degraded. Nowadays, they have that choice, and unfortunately they choose to do just that. In that respect, things are worse now than they were back then.

[JSngry]

Let's ask these question - would Amos 'n Andy be funny if America did not have the racial history that it does? Would Amos 'n Andy likely to have been created if America did not have the racial history that it does? Is the comedy of buffoonery inherently degrading irregardless of it's characters? If you just arrived here on Earth & knew nothing of different races and their stereotypes, would Steppin' Fetchit be funnier than Jacques Tati? Which is the more fully realized vision of Appalachian AdultChild - Ma & Pa Kettle or The Beverly Hillbillies? Would Donald Trump & my uncle Vernon find Jerry Clower funny for the same reasons?

[Randy Twizzle]

Radio historian Elizabeth McLeod has written extensively on the show. This is from http://www.midcoast.com/~lizmcl/aa.html

There's no disputing, however, that the question of race cannot be avoided in considering "Amos 'n' Andy." And the essential question of purpose looms even larger -- what sort of impression were Gosden and Correll trying to create?

Gosden and Correll set themselves apart from the "blackface" tradition early in their radio careers by deliberately avoiding "joke" comedy, and constructing their program on a foundation of solid characterization. This was a complete break from the minstrel tradition, with its interchangeable burnt-cork caricatures. Amos, Andy and their friends were distinctive personalities who experienced a full range of emotions. This in itself was a rarity in American popular fiction, which usually relegated black characters to faceless servant roles or used them to broadly parody the conventions of the white world.

The performers also set themselves apart from their minstrel predecessors by actively seeking the endorsement of black leaders. Even in their earliest days in Chicago, the team made a point of maintaining a cordial relationship with such organizations as the Chicago Urban League and the DuSable Club, the latter the city's leading organization of black business and professional men. Their efforts on behalf of black charities were noted with approval by the Chicago Defender, a prominent weekly newspaper catering to the African-American community. The team clearly valued the support of such organizations.

One might draw the conclusion from these efforts that Gosden and Correll were doing their good works out of self-interest, conscious as they were of the need for good publicity. But the fact remains that no other "blackface" entertainers of the day ever even tried to do that much: for such personalities to even recognize the existence of the black community was unprecedented.

Even in the program's own time, black listeners were divided over "Amos 'n' Andy." As early as 1931, at the peak of the program's popularity, journalist Robert Vann of the Pittsburgh Courier took a strong editorial stand against the program -- a stand which particularly targeted the lower-class background of the series. Although Vann fell far short in his effort to gather a million petition signatures against the program -- and although the campaign was ridiculed in the pages of the Chicago Defender, which was, at the time, a strong supporter of "Amos 'n' Andy" -- it was clear even that early that the racial legacy of the program would be ambiguous at best.

Today, seventy years after "Amos 'n' Andy's" debut, it is impossible for many historians to view the program in its own context. Years of emotional debate have clouded the memory of what the program actually was -- and what its creators had intended it to be. Most discussions revolve around the ill-fated 1950s television adaptation of the program, or the post-1943 half-hour radio sitcom: programs very, very different from Gosden and Correll's original vision for the series.

In the end, one sees in "Amos 'n' Andy" what one has been conditioned to see -- and that conditioning may involve racial issues which go far beyond a simple fifteen minute radio program. But perhaps, someday, we'll have come far enough as a society to examine the series -- and its legacy -- with a truly open mind.

[Big Al]

Radio historian Elizabeth McLeod has written extensively on the show. This is from http://www.midcoast.com/~lizmcl/aa.html

In the end, one sees in "Amos 'n' Andy" what one has been conditioned to see -- and that conditioning may involve racial issues which go far beyond a simple fifteen minute radio program. But perhaps, someday, we'll have come far enough as a society to examine the series -- and its legacy -- with a truly open mind.

I hope. But I ain't holding my breath.

[JSngry]

without looking it up, quick raise ya'lls hands, who knows what HNIC stands for?

I'll deliver an answer @ 5:00 PM CPT.

[Harold_Z]

I think Clem's got the microphone on this one and I pretty much see things as the same way.

This is wayyyyy complex and cuts all ways. Almost to the point of the Fats qoute ( or Duke quote - or whoever said it). If you don't get this you'll never get it. (Or it will take a lot of thought and experience.)

BTW #1 - I know what HNIC is.

BTW #2- I bought "Check and Double Check" for 99 cents in Paterson last year. I still haven't watched it. I bought it because of Duke. I've seen that clip. I think a lot us here have. It's the one where Freddie Jenkins fans his ax. I thought I'd like to see it in context. Haven't watched it yet and I suspect that there is no context. Just a flick with Duke in the middle of it.

[Harold_Z]

One more thought about Amos and Andy.

Do we make a distinction between the blackface white guys doing it as opposed to the black actors who did the 50s tv show?

Did we enjoy one more than the other?

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

speaking of which, i'm out duns-- heading to Flatbush for SENEGALESE food.

Struth! You can get real Senegalese food in America? Wow! Nearest Senegalese restaurants to me are in Paris and Brussels.

MG

[fasstrack]

po-po gould? dan's the mothersupreme ____off here, dunno about any other imaginary qualities, nor care.

this is a very complicated & fascinating subject; suffice it to say, here, in general, whitey is waaaaaaaaaay more uptight about such things today than black folks in my experience, bc it's an easy out that obscures a lotta other racist/classist/fuckedup-ist social & political issues. things are great in tha' hood & in the rural areas now we can't see amos & andy... ain't it? ain't it?

the RJ Smith ain't horrible but WAY more germane to yr question is BLACK LIKE YOU by John Strausbaugh, came out this past June or July. (but it NEW from Amazon above & support two swell causes.)

fassrack & md20-20, dun, how much exactly do you fellas know about minstrel shows?

any ya'll think this is a SIMPLE question are putting yr easy-- dare i say priviledged?-- sense of "ethics" far far in front of complex, multivalent, black/white/other realities. don't fool yrself otherwise until ya'll do the research AND talk to the older folks.

comin' at ya'll w/the troof,

elder clementine

(the southern gentleman)

edit for title, BLACK LIKE YOU

No, it ain't simple, and who said it was? And you don't know who I am, who I've spoken to, grown up around, revered and learned from, or what I've experienced, so let's lose those suppositions, please. So I'm white (and Jewish, for you completists) and raised the issue. Consider me merely the messenger chronicling in disgust what I saw and posing questions. You (or anyone else) need to know more about me before painting me any kind of way beyond that, unless you can tell me the baggage I brought merely from what I wrote. Fair enough?

Minstrel shows? Only from reading and film clips, but unless someone on here is 100+ years old we're all in the same boat on that one. But is this where you're going with it?: There's a very slick old traditional approach to comedy by blacks wherein white folks are pilloried and parodied without even knowing it. That's what the cakewalk was supposed to be about, right? The whites enjoyed minstrel shows because it played to their ideas of blacks but there was an undercurrent of rebellion supposedly underneath whitey didn't get and wasn't supposed to. Even that is a hell of a simplification, I'm sure.

But Amos and Andy was white-produced, the stars were white (supporting cast, Kingfish, etc. played by blacks). This was the only film appearance of the radio team and the stereotypes and white might being pushed are nauseating, even though it was 1930. I raised the question, have things changed from then to white-controlled hip hop and other entertainment. Let's put Katrina aside for a minute---my bad for putting that in this particular brew---not that it's a thing apart, but I want to simplify it somewhat. It seems the main difference between then and now is there's a lot more money now to be made 'playing to type' but the 'type' played to hasn't changed much. That's what I wanted to focus on.

Any discussion of race is risky and sparks are gonna fly, but let's leave the suppositions of uptightness and privilege out of it please. That's too facile, a prejudice in itself frankly, and not the point, not to me anyway. We know every American is somewhat poisoned by racism or else a liar or saint. Let's discuss this subject.

And yeah I know what HNIC stands for. And I've been fantasizing for years about getting a desk sign that says HKIC (head Kike in Charge) but I have kids over the house for lessons and some parents are, ahem, uptight. Why, I even have to hide my punching rabbi doll....

(I swear I actually have a punching rabbi doll)

Edited October 3, 2006 by fasstrack

[fasstrack]

BTW, Clementine: what part of Brooklyn are you in? I lived all over but was born and bred in Canarsie. CHS '72---right next to Curtis Sliwa---yeah, I know---and the next year it was Lloyd ('World Be') Free' and Warren Cucarulla (who i did grow up with). Also Patrick Clark who I knew in HS and turned out to be an innovative chef. He died waiting for a heart transplant. Great guy.

[Indestructible!]

without looking it up, quick raise ya'lls hands, who knows what HNIC stands for?

I'll deliver an answer @ 5:00 PM CPT.

Jim,

I didn't know Hockey Night in Canada started that early! It always came on at 6:00 MST when I was growing up!

Cheers,

Shane

[medjuck]

Check and Double Check is one of the strangest movies ever made. I ordered a copy on VHS because I love the performance of Old Man Blues so much. I was stunned when I saw it. You get white guys in black face, interspresed with documentary footage of Harlem with people who really are Black .Then Amos and Andy drive the Ellington band to a party and Barney Bigard and Juan Tizol are in blackface! 3 of the band members step forward to sing 3 Little Words and the sounds of the Rhythm Boys-- 3 White guys (one of whom is Bing Crosby)-- comes out of their mouths. This is the weirdest film I've seen since Starship Troopers.

BTW I did some research: the film was a big flop. Supposedly many of the Black listeners to the show didn't know it was done by White guys. They were outraged when the film made it obvious. And I guess White audiences just didn't want to see it.

[fasstrack]

I was stunned when I saw it. You get white guys in black face, interspresed with documentary footage of Harlem with people who really are Black .

Also, FWIW---probably next to nothing---the scene where they're racing through Harlem to meet the train at Penn Sta. uses an early an primitive form of whatever projection technique that is where it appears that a car is moving and it's actually stationary. It may be the first or one of the first times that was used (I'm speculating here). This technique is still in common use in SNL sketches. What's it called? Someone help me out here.

[B. Clugston]

without looking it up, quick raise ya'lls hands, who knows what HNIC stands for?

I'll deliver an answer @ 5:00 PM CPT.

Jim,

I didn't know Hockey Night in Canada started that early! It always came on at 6:00 MST when I was growing up!

Cheers,

Shane

[fasstrack]

3 of the band members step forward to sing 3 Little Words and the sounds of the Rhythm Boys-- 3 White guys (one of whom is Bing Crosby)-- comes out of their mouths.

Ah, so that explains it. I was watching it in bed across the room from my monitor and thought it was another band, a white band, then walked to the screen and saw guys from Duke's band singing really nasally through megaphones. I said 'what the....' Never would've thought it was lip-synched.

Too weird.....