Pharoah Sanders

[sidewinder]

Pharaoh's best on Impulse was his first 'Tauhid'.

Others were good but none was better!

I have to agree with that.

[J Larsen]

It's great that Verve put so many Sanders records on cds back when they still had a real reissue program, but I really wish they had gotten around to Live at the East. That's a really tough one to find on vinyl, and I have to say it is my hands-down favorite.

[JSngry]

It's great that Verve put so many Sanders records on cds back when they still had a real reissue program, but I really wish they had gotten around to Live at the East. That's a really tough one to find on vinyl, and I have to say it is my hands-down favorite.

Yeah, that's the Impulse! I keep coming back to more than any other. Tauhid is unexplainably unsatisfying for me, & Karma, vibe-heavy though it is, is one I wore out back in the day. The others all have their charms, but Live At The East has a freakin' mojo.

[alocispepraluger102]

I liked "Summum Bukmun Umyun" as well as "Thembi". I haven't played "Karma" in such a long time that to be honest with you I really don't remember it and on "Jewels of Thought" I liked the opening number with Leon Thomas and after that I just couldn't deal. The rest of the Impulse sides I haven't heard. I really wasn't aware that Pharoah had such a lengthy history with the label.

'house of the lord' from summum is a personal favorite, but it's pretty much just blowing.

[AndrewHill]

Sander's Impulse! sides are for the most part, really good. Tauhid is probably the best out of the lot although Black Unity is a close second, and Deaf, Dumb, Blind a third. Karma does have a really nice groove, which I like. I'm not really a fan of vocals, but Leon Thomas is a nice fit in this context. I even like the lyrics. Thembi has its moments, and it was mentioned that McBee is impressive on this side, and I completely agree. Jewels of thought's first song is interesting but the second tune can be discarded. Have not heard Live at the East, but I'd really like to. Besides these records, I own the ESP, which is almost like the same problem that Ayler had on 'My Name is Albert Ayler' where Pharoah is fighting a really straight-laced band. Enjoyable enough though. The Strata East date, though, is another affair, and largely successful. Great band on that one.

[Guy Berger]

I liked "Summum Bukmun Umyun" as well as "Thembi". I haven't played "Karma" in such a long time that to be honest with you I really don't remember it and on "Jewels of Thought" I liked the opening number with Leon Thomas and after that I just couldn't deal. The rest of the Impulse sides I haven't heard. I really wasn't aware that Pharoah had such a lengthy history with the label.

'house of the lord' from summum is a personal favorite, but it's pretty much just blowing.

Really beautiful, nonetheless. Luminous.

Guy

Edited May 6, 2007 by Guy

[JSngry]

Besides these records, I own the ESP, which is almost like the same problem that Ayler had on 'My Name is Albert Ayler' where Pharoah is fighting a really straight-laced band.

You think so? I don't hear it that way at all. I hear it as a typical "practicing" jam session, the kind that's different from the staged public kind. I hear Pharoah ebbing and flowing in terms of inspiration, playing through it all. It's the way real jam sessions sound. As for the band, Jane Getz is no slouch, even if she's no Titan either. The rest of the band is jam-session caliber, I think.

The difference for me is that everybody was more or less on the same page. Pharoah in 1964 was not the Pharoah of a year later. Ayler, otoh, was aready someplace else, far removed from his what his accompaniment could even begin to think about.

[Guest donald petersen]

tahuid is unsatisfying because the first tune is like 65 percent insubstantial, the second tune is kind of insubstantial and the third tune is patchy.

though i also think live at the east has a lot of dull patches.

black unity is the best, IMO.

[milestones20]

In chronological order, the ones I've heard.

1) Tauhid - solid debut

2) Karma - the best of the bunch

3) Jewels of Thought - underrated

4) Summun Bukmun Umyun - very ethereal

5) Thembi - patched together

6) Elevation - not bad, not great

All in all, Karma is my fav, followed by Jewels of Thought.

[AndrewHill]

Besides these records, I own the ESP, which is almost like the same problem that Ayler had on 'My Name is Albert Ayler' where Pharoah is fighting a really straight-laced band.

You think so? I don't hear it that way at all. I hear it as a typical "practicing" jam session, the kind that's different from the staged public kind. I hear Pharoah ebbing and flowing in terms of inspiration, playing through it all. It's the way real jam sessions sound. As for the band, Jane Getz is no slouch, even if she's no Titan either. The rest of the band is jam-session caliber, I think.

The difference for me is that everybody was more or less on the same page. Pharoah in 1964 was not the Pharoah of a year later. Ayler, otoh, was aready someplace else, far removed from his what his accompaniment could even begin to think about.

I understand what you are saying, and agreed, Ayler was way ahead of Pharoah, but I see these two sessions as being identical in terms of circumstance only. With Ayler, NHOP was on bass, who I don't consider to be a slouch, but he in fact played pretty much inside on that date. And on the ESP date, Jane Getz may be a key player, but she was pretty much playing inside too (as I think she was on the Mingus live date as well). My only point was that there are two players that were pushing ahead, and they were stuck with forward-thinking bands. The only difference is that Ayler and Pharoah recorded about two years apart. Ayler though, as you indicated, is in another bag, and that bag I respect tremondously. Pharoah had his work cut for him and he too was trying to push out, but he was stuck in a similar circumstance as Ayler, it just happen that Ayler was stuck with a similar band just two years prior.

[clifford_thornton]

Jane's playing is fine on that Pharaoh (and enjoy it on the Mingus Jazz Workshop side too), but I have to wonder how things would've differed sans piano. Patillo can swing - dig the first Simmons on ESP for more proof - and Bennett and Foster could certainly keep things rolling. Just a thought.

Still need a clean LP copy of Live at the East...

[JSngry]

Besides these records, I own the ESP, which is almost like the same problem that Ayler had on 'My Name is Albert Ayler' where Pharoah is fighting a really straight-laced band.

You think so? I don't hear it that way at all. I hear it as a typical "practicing" jam session, the kind that's different from the staged public kind. I hear Pharoah ebbing and flowing in terms of inspiration, playing through it all. It's the way real jam sessions sound. As for the band, Jane Getz is no slouch, even if she's no Titan either. The rest of the band is jam-session caliber, I think.

The difference for me is that everybody was more or less on the same page. Pharoah in 1964 was not the Pharoah of a year later. Ayler, otoh, was aready someplace else, far removed from his what his accompaniment could even begin to think about.

I understand what you are saying, and agreed, Ayler was way ahead of Pharoah, but I see these two sessions as being identical in terms of circumstance only. With Ayler, NHOP was on bass, who I don't consider to be a slouch, but he in fact played pretty much inside on that date. And on the ESP date, Jane Getz may be a key player, but she was pretty much playing inside too (as I think she was on the Mingus live date as well). My only point was that there are two players that were pushing ahead, and they were stuck with forward-thinking bands. The only difference is that Ayler and Pharoah recorded about two years apart. Ayler though, as you indicated, is in another bag, and that bag I respect tremondously. Pharoah had his work cut for him and he too was trying to push out, but he was stuck in a similar circumstance as Ayler, it just happen that Ayler was stuck with a similar band just two years prior.

Well see, I don't think that Pharoah thinking at the time of this date (Sept. 1964, right?) was as fully formed as Ayler's was. The guy's plaing changes and he sounds like he's into playing changes. You can hear him working on shit as he goes along. You wouldn't be doing it like that if you were totally convinced that it was going to be a dead end. Sure, he no doubt had some other stuff going on at the time, but his approach here tells me that he had not ruled out playing changes as something that he was going to continue to do (and in fact hasn't done, although that's only obvious now).

Ayler, otoh, was fully convinced that his way was going to be it for him. You can tell right away that playing chages is something that he is so not going to be thinking about, much less actually doing. He's fully gone from that way and has made a full committment to his way. To me, that's the difference.

Another way to look at it is this - if Pharoah hadn't have gotten the gig w/Trane, how would he have been playing in 1966? Of course there's no way to really know, but the depth of his commitment on the ESP side leads me to wonder if maybe, just maybe, the platform of the Coltrane gig, and all that it entailed, forced the issue for him in a way that it might not have otherwise been forced. Pure speculation, that is, but...

[clifford_thornton]

Wasn't he playing with cats like Charles Moffett, Don Cherry, Byron Allen and Alan Shorter prior to his commitment to Trane's group? I guess that implies more of a "free-bop" thing, but...

[Guy Berger]

One thing that bothers me a little about Karma is the combination of flute and French horn in the background.

Guy

[jazzbo]

Wasn't he playing with cats like Charles Moffett, Don Cherry, Byron Allen and Alan Shorter prior to his commitment to Trane's group? I guess that implies more of a "free-bop" thing, but...

And. . .Sun Ra.

[clifford_thornton]

Sun WHO?

[JSngry]

Wasn't he playing with cats like Charles Moffett, Don Cherry, Byron Allen and Alan Shorter prior to his commitment to Trane's group? I guess that implies more of a "free-bop" thing, but...

And, as noted, Ra. But there's nothing/nobody there - even Ra - that would have forced the issue so resolutely out of the realm of change-playing, even if freely, than getting the handoff from Trane in 1965-66. You had to go there, and go there all the way. There simply was no other option.

[AndrewHill]

Besides these records, I own the ESP, which is almost like the same problem that Ayler had on 'My Name is Albert Ayler' where Pharoah is fighting a really straight-laced band.

You think so? I don't hear it that way at all. I hear it as a typical "practicing" jam session, the kind that's different from the staged public kind. I hear Pharoah ebbing and flowing in terms of inspiration, playing through it all. It's the way real jam sessions sound. As for the band, Jane Getz is no slouch, even if she's no Titan either. The rest of the band is jam-session caliber, I think.

The difference for me is that everybody was more or less on the same page. Pharoah in 1964 was not the Pharoah of a year later. Ayler, otoh, was aready someplace else, far removed from his what his accompaniment could even begin to think about.

I understand what you are saying, and agreed, Ayler was way ahead of Pharoah, but I see these two sessions as being identical in terms of circumstance only. With Ayler, NHOP was on bass, who I don't consider to be a slouch, but he in fact played pretty much inside on that date. And on the ESP date, Jane Getz may be a key player, but she was pretty much playing inside too (as I think she was on the Mingus live date as well). My only point was that there are two players that were pushing ahead, and they were stuck with forward-thinking bands. The only difference is that Ayler and Pharoah recorded about two years apart. Ayler though, as you indicated, is in another bag, and that bag I respect tremondously. Pharoah had his work cut for him and he too was trying to push out, but he was stuck in a similar circumstance as Ayler, it just happen that Ayler was stuck with a similar band just two years prior.

Well see, I don't think that Pharoah thinking at the time of this date (Sept. 1964, right?) was as fully formed as Ayler's was. The guy's plaing changes and he sounds like he's into playing changes. You can hear him working on shit as he goes along. You wouldn't be doing it like that if you were totally convinced that it was going to be a dead end. Sure, he no doubt had some other stuff going on at the time, but his approach here tells me that he had not ruled out playing changes as something that he was going to continue to do (and in fact hasn't done, although that's only obvious now).

Ayler, otoh, was fully convinced that his way was going to be it for him. You can tell right away that playing chages is something that he is so not going to be thinking about, much less actually doing. He's fully gone from that way and has made a full committment to his way. To me, that's the difference.

Another way to look at it is this - if Pharoah hadn't have gotten the gig w/Trane, how would he have been playing in 1966? Of course there's no way to really know, but the depth of his commitment on the ESP side leads me to wonder if maybe, just maybe, the platform of the Coltrane gig, and all that it entailed, forced the issue for him in a way that it might not have otherwise been forced. Pure speculation, that is, but...

Ok, I listened to both My Name is AA and Pharoah's First today and I see the point you're making. The similarity that I was bringing to light only concerns the rhythm sections and not the leaders. I guess the way I see it is that Albert's band was really not prepared for something of that caliber, nor do they seem convinced of his new brand of music; whereas Pharoah's band was just simply trying to play as out as they possibly could, although it seems that they were not completely comfortable with the circumstances, especially Stan Foster (surprisingly, Jane Getz seems to embrace the moment). Hence, Ayler's band seems baffled in the implied sense, whereas Pharoah seems to be just downright fustrated with his band. Regardless, I like both of these albums quite a bit and I wasn't trying to say that they are the same musically speaking. I think though that both Ayler and Pharoah were trying to do their own thing and were met with largely unresponsive rhythm sections.

[AndrewHill]

Jane's playing is fine on that Pharaoh (and enjoy it on the Mingus Jazz Workshop side too), but I have to wonder how things would've differed sans piano. Patillo can swing - dig the first Simmons on ESP for more proof - and Bennett and Foster could certainly keep things rolling. Just a thought.

Still need a clean LP copy of Live at the East...

Jane Getz is indeed a fine player. Nothing really flashy but a solid player nonetheless. I'm also a fan of both of Sonny's ESP's, especially the first one. Manhatten Egos is another favorite along with the Contemporary's of the early 70's. Barbara Donald's contributions are rather valuable in their own right.

Edited May 8, 2007 by Holy Ghost

[AndrewHill]

One thing that bothers me a little about Karma is the combination of flute and French horn in the background.

Guy

Its Julius Watkins and James Spaulding though -_- .

[7/4]

One thing that bothers me a little about Karma is the combination of flute and French horn in the background.

Guy

Why? It's a nice combination.

[Guy Berger]

One thing that bothers me a little about Karma is the combination of flute and French horn in the background.

Guy

Why? It's a nice combination.

It gives the album a lushy-mushy sound that I don't like.

Guy

[7/4]

One thing that bothers me a little about Karma is the combination of flute and French horn in the background.

Why? It's a nice combination.

It gives the album a lushy-mushy sound that I don't like.

Guy

Yeah, dismiss me with some sophisticated musicologist shrubbery.

I'll listen to it later and see what I think then.

[Guy Berger]

There's a bass riff near the end of Black Unity that really reminds me of another bass riff on Mike Oldfield's Tubular Bells. Anybody know what I am talking about? I think it's the part right before the hilarious recitation of the musical instruments.

Guy

[chewy-chew-chew-bean-benitez]

whos this john kelemmer guy on cadet and why does he think hes the white Phaorah Sanders?