felser Posted November 12, 2006 Report Share Posted November 12, 2006 I have tried in my other AOTW postings to nominate either exemplary works which may have flown under the radar for a lot of listeners on the board, or else works that seemed to be calling out for re-evaluation. I take a break from those purposes this time around, and instead select a work simply because it may be the most beautiful piece of music I've ever heard. Charles Mingus recorded 'The Black Saint and the Sinner Lady' for Impulse Records in January of 1963. AMG says of the album "...one of the greatest achievements in orchestration by any composer in jazz history...Charles Mingus consciously designed the six-part ballet as his magnum opus, and ... it's as much an examination of his own tortured psyche as it is a conceptual piece about love and struggle. It veers between so many emotions that it defies easy encapsulation...Yet the work soon reveals itself as a masterpiece of rich, multi-layered texture and swirling tonal colors, manipulated with a painter's attention to detail. There are a few stylistic reference points — Ellington, the contemporary avant-garde, several flamenco guitar breaks — but the totality is quite unlike what came before it. ..Mingus was sometimes pigeonholed as a firebrand, but the personal exorcism of Black Saint deserves the reputation — one needn't be able to follow the story line to hear the suffering, mourning, frustration, and caged fury pouring out of the music...The result is one of the high-water marks for avant-garde jazz in the '60s and arguably Mingus' most brilliant moment." I'll add two points. One is that this is Charlie Mariano's career moment - his playing is stunning on this album. The other is that if you're a young guy or new to the music,and haven't heard this, don't rest until you have it in your possession and playing on your music playback equipment of choice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guy Berger Posted November 12, 2006 Report Share Posted November 12, 2006 Great album! I kind of wish Dolphy had been on it, but maybe that would have been "too good". Mariano is spectacular, as you say. Also, Jerome Richardson (I think) has a nice solo or two near the beginning. But in general this music isn't about solos. Guy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ep1str0phy Posted November 12, 2006 Report Share Posted November 12, 2006 (edited) Yeah, having Dolphy on the album would have been tremendous (it's terrifically wishy-washy, of course, but--then again--I've never been one of the many diehard fans of this recording). I think I first spun this one back when I was just getting into Mingus, and compared to the rougher, generally looser Atlantic material, I found the Impulse sides somewhat lacking. I still get the sense that this one is a little too rarefied--conceptually dense, of course (that was always one of the 'take it or leave it' parts of the whole Mingus ethos), and not without its moments of dire spontaneity (Mariano is superlative, as previously mentioned), but perhaps a little overwrought, verging on affected. This isn't to say that I don't find the album enjoyable--and technically, at least, it's a masterpiece of modern jazz... points for ambition, and passion, of course--only that it doesn't feel quite so organic and, for that matter, emotionally salient. For whatever it's worth, I'd take "Haitian Fight Song" for the win... Edited November 12, 2006 by ep1str0phy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guy Berger Posted November 12, 2006 Report Share Posted November 12, 2006 Yeah, having Dolphy on the album would have been tremendous (it's terrifically wishy-washy, of course, but--then again--I've never been one of the many diehard fans of this recording). I think I first spun this one back when I was just getting into Mingus, and compared to the rougher, generally looser Atlantic material, I found the Impulse sides somewhat lacking. I still get the sense that this one is a little too rarefied--conceptually dense, of course (that was always one of the 'take it or leave it' parts of the whole Mingus ethos), and not without its moments of dire spontaneity (Mariano is superlative, as previously mentioned), but perhaps a little overwrought, verging on affected. This isn't to say that I don't find the album enjoyable--and technically, at least, it's a masterpiece of modern jazz... points for ambition, and passion, of course--only that it doesn't feel quite so organic and, for that matter, emotionally salient. For whatever it's worth, I'd take "Haitian Fight Song" for the win... You're right that the vibe of this album is different from the Atlantic recordings. But I would put this in a very ballpark from the other Impulse ensemble album -- this one is much edgier. I don't think Let My Children Hear Music is as good. Maybe a comparison that shouldn't be made, but it's the only other "big band Mingus" I've heard. Guy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ep1str0phy Posted November 12, 2006 Report Share Posted November 12, 2006 Edgier, yeah (and, at times, perhaps the darkest that Mingus ever got), but I think that there are moments on the other big band Impulse album that surpass Black Saint for sheer brio, shock, and surprise. Dolphy's solo on "Hora Decubitus", for example, is one of the single wildest things on a modern large group side I've ever heard... makes me wonder what his presence might have done to Black Saint. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted November 12, 2006 Report Share Posted November 12, 2006 I like the word "exorcism". Started listening to this one when I was 17 and had a lot of demons. As I got older,I accquired more demons, and this album always helped. Now that most of the demons are tamed, it remains an old and trusted friend who's shared things that most of my musical friends haven't. Or, more to the point, couldn't. Comparisons are inevitable, but ultimately useless, because this music differs in intent & in execution from any other Mingus work, including his other big-band work. Very little here in the way of explicit, fully composed themes, just a little sumphin-sumphin to get the vibe in place, and then it all comes tumblin' down, as if in the midnight hour. The closest thing conceptually would be "Folk Forms No. 1", but that one is a train to a totally different town.... The amazing thing to me (although maybe it shouldn't be), is the amount of splicing in this album, and that Mariano's solo interludes were recorded seperately, far from the maddening cloud of the rest of the session. Although you can hear the studio constructionism of the whole thing (especially after you know it well), there's a constant flow of emotion across it all that could just as easily come from a non-stop live performance. Technically, that's the mark of a good editor/producer, but spiritually, that tells me that everybody was in a zone on this project and that with skillful enough chops, it could have been spliced together one note at a time & it would still have the same vibe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikeweil Posted November 12, 2006 Report Share Posted November 12, 2006 The amazing thing to me (although maybe it shouldn't be), is the amount of splicing in this album, and that Mariano's solo interludes were recorded seperately, far from the maddening cloud of the rest of the session. Although you can hear the studio constructionism of the whole thing (especially after you know it well), there's a constant flow of emotion across it all that could just as easily come from a non-stop live performance. Technically, that's the mark of a good editor/producer, but spiritually, that tells me that everybody was in a zone on this project and that with skillful enough chops, it could have been spliced together one note at a time & it would still have the same vibe. The Verve Elite CD of Pre-Bird has index marks for all the splices - he spliced together a Yusef Lateef solo cadenza there note by note, and I almost couldn't believe it until I saw the flow of index marks ..... somehow this gives me the goosebumps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swinger Posted November 12, 2006 Report Share Posted November 12, 2006 Perfect album! This was the one that got me into seriously into jazz around 10 years ago.I have cried many times after listening to this cd.It makes me sob and sometimes cry. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(BB) Posted November 12, 2006 Report Share Posted November 12, 2006 Does anyone know if this has ever been choreographed and performed as a ballet or otherwise? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
felser Posted November 12, 2006 Author Report Share Posted November 12, 2006 Does anyone know if this has ever been choreographed and performed as a ballet or otherwise? Great idea, and it seems like Mingus may have well had that in mind based on his naming of the sections. If it hasn't been, I'll challenge my daughter to the task. She looks to be a legitimate dance major when she goes to college. BTW, if anyone is knowledgeable on collegiate dance programs, please contact me! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evonce Posted November 12, 2006 Report Share Posted November 12, 2006 Excellent album, a desert isle selection for me. Visceral. And there's no way I'd ever trade Mariano's playing on this for Dolphy. Some great bass work from Mingus too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
felser Posted November 12, 2006 Author Report Share Posted November 12, 2006 (edited) there's no way I'd ever trade Mariano's playing on this for Dolphy. My thoughts also. Dolphy was great, especially in the context of Mingus's music, but I can't imagine anything improving on what Mariano contributed to this work. Dolphy's playing likely would have been out of context for this music, which draws on the Ellington (and Johnny Hodges with Ellington) tradition so much in places. Edited November 13, 2006 by felser Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kh1958 Posted November 12, 2006 Report Share Posted November 12, 2006 Priestley's Mingus biography says the 10 piece group performed at the Village Vanguard from November 27 to December 19, 1962. The club only paid Mingus for a sextet. The group also performed in February at Carnegie Hall in a benefit concert (Dannie Richmond was a no show). Otherwise, the book says Mingus was inactive public-appearance wise until August. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chalupa Posted November 13, 2006 Report Share Posted November 13, 2006 I love this album. The first album of his that I really got into after Mingusx5. Does anyone know which piano parts are played by Mingus? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
felser Posted November 13, 2006 Author Report Share Posted November 13, 2006 Dolphy's solo on "Hora Decubitus", for example, is one of the single wildest things on a modern large group side I've ever heard... When I first started listening to jazz, I picked up a 3 LP sampler called 'Impulse Energy Essentials'. It had "Hora Decubitus" on it, my first exposure to both Mingus and Dolphy. Dolphy's solo is a thing of wonder - no one else could have conceptualized that solo. Another great moment I remember on that set was "Nuttin' Out Jones" from the 'Illuminations' album, my introduction to Sonny Simmons. And Dolphy showed up on 'Teenies Blues' by Oliver Nelson. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B. Clugston Posted November 13, 2006 Report Share Posted November 13, 2006 My favourite Mingus, maybe even my favourite jazz album. This one packs an emotional wallop. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B. Clugston Posted November 14, 2006 Report Share Posted November 14, 2006 I love this album. The first album of his that I really got into after Mingusx5. Does anyone know which piano parts are played by Mingus? Mingus plays the opening two piano solos on track 3. There's still the mystery of who is playing celeste, marimba or is it vibes. (If it's the former, it's Jaki Byard.) It's always sounded like marimba to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guy Berger Posted November 14, 2006 Report Share Posted November 14, 2006 Here's an older thread on this album. Guy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clifford_thornton Posted November 15, 2006 Report Share Posted November 15, 2006 Another great moment I remember on that set was "Nuttin' Out Jones" from the 'Illuminations' album, my introduction to Sonny Simmons. AMAZING LP, that Illumination! ... this should be an AOTW, if it hasn't already. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
felser Posted November 15, 2006 Author Report Share Posted November 15, 2006 AMAZING LP, that Illumination! ... this should be an AOTW, if it hasn't already. That can be arranged... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ep1str0phy Posted November 16, 2006 Report Share Posted November 16, 2006 Second (third) the enthusiasm on Illumination... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mandrill Posted November 20, 2006 Report Share Posted November 20, 2006 MINGUS LIVES! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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