Burns' THE WAR gets drubbed in the New Yorker

[ghost of miles]

The review seems a bit unfocused to me at times, but...

In the Trenches

[kinuta]

I haven't seen the programme so will have to reserve judgement.

It will need to be absolutely extraordinary in order to compare with the magnificent 1973 The World At War.

[ghost of miles]

I haven't seen the programme so will have to reserve judgement.

It will need to be absolutely extraordinary in order to compare with the magnificent 1973 The World At War.

Agree on both counts. Even if Burns' series turns out to be better than the review suggests, I think the earlier series will remain more "definitive," as these things go... simply for its international perspective. And I actually prefer the older, drier 1970s documentary style... I've gotten heartily sick of mood music and soundtrack manipulation, historical recreations, famous actors reading letters, and what-not.

Edited September 22, 2007 by ghost of miles

[Larry Kart]

Something to look forward to -- Wynton supplies the music for this one.

[Christiern]

I stopped looking forward to Ken Burns "documentaries" a long time ago. If he gets this one right, I'll be the first to say so, but it sure does not appear to be the case.

Wynton doing the music is not good news--will we also hear Crouch talk about his non-existent WWII experiences?

[Big Al]

Something to look forward to -- Wynton supplies the music for this one.

You're kidding, right? Please say you're kidding.

I'm with Ghost on this one. Stuff like that seems to contradict the whole notion of "documenting" something.

[Jazzmoose]

Something to look forward to -- Wynton supplies the music for this one.

"The Big Bertha made sort of a 'sssssssssss-BOOOM-woooosh' sound, while other cannons were more...."

[Neal Pomea]

It will need to be absolutely extraordinary in order to compare with the magnificent 1973 The World At War.

I think The World at War will continue to be a more authoritative source than this documentary (magnificent!), but I look forward to this and reaction to it. I saw an hour of it in a presentation to a room of about 500 people and it was very moving. There'll be more footage of corpses washing up on the beach in the Pacific, from what I saw. The World at War was a bit distant about that sort of thing. Can't say how this documentary covers Africa and Europe.

Musical choices? WTF? Burns spoke and gushed about Norah Jones' performance of a song that "summed it all up" at the end of the series. Well, it didn't represent ME too well, but I guess it represented somebody's taste.

[Neal Pomea]

I've gotten heartily sick of mood music and soundtrack manipulation, historical recreations, famous actors reading letters, and what-not.

Exactly!

[Kalo]

I stopped looking forward to Ken Burns "documentaries" a long time ago. If he gets this one right, I'll be the first to say so, but it sure does not appear to be the case.

Wynton doing the music is not good news--will we also hear Crouch talk about his non-existent WWII experiences?

Did he bitch-slap Hitler in his imagination?

[Kalo]

Something to look forward to -- Wynton supplies the music for this one.

Direct quote from Nancy Franklin's New Yorker review: "...a nagging, peskily ever-present sound-track by Wynton Marsalis..."

[Kalo]

But my favorite line from the review is this one:

"At fifteen hours, 'The War" is too much of a not good enough thing."

[BERIGAN]

Well, it still sounds kind of interesting. I have liked all of his documentaries to some extent, so will give it a chance. Just no one give away who won the war please......

[Neal Pomea]

I've watched two episodes and the background music has not had even a hint of country music, not even when covering Mobile Alabama. I thought one of the Japanese battle cries was "To hell with Roy Acuff!"

I took part in yesterday's Washington Post live chat with Ken Burns (but somebody else asked the same question about how he chose the four towns.) You may have to register to see it, I don't know:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/conte...7090702377.html

[T.D.]

I can't get this program (I live in a rural area, don't spring for a dish and get hardly any channels), so can't directly comment. But my father (who served in the Navy during Korean War period) has been watching, and he enjoys it despite various flaws.

[Christiern]

Fromn what I have seen, so far, Wynton's music is both intrusive and off the mark. Let's face it, WWII had its own score and nothing can be more effective than the music of the period.

IMO, the only thing worth watching in Burns' so-called documentaries is the footage--with all the money that's wasted on his productions, great, often rare clips are the sole redeeming value. It's just a shame that these kinds of well-funded, generously timed projects are not in the hands of honest film makers.

[Man with the Golden Arm]

Something to look forward to -- Wynton supplies the music for this one.

Direct quote from Nancy Franklin's New Yorker review: "...a nagging, peskily ever-present sound-track by Wynton Marsalis..."

now let's not forget Norah! and I heard her father complaining that the project did not pay enough attention to our sitar weilding allies in the great battles of Sumatra.

[brownie]

Hope French TV will play the series (the Burns Jazz did not air over here).

'The World at War' remains the best series on WWII so far.

The fact that Burns hired Marsalis to record the soundtrack does notbide well!

[Christiern]

Norah's song was wedged into the film and not at all prepossessing. I remember the war years well, having spent almost 3 of them in New York, the rest in occupied Iceland, and 1 1/2 month on the Atlantic Ocean. One problem with Burns' films is that he allows whatever visual material he can find to dictate the direction, and when he allows unidentified clips to trigger his fantasy, he simply makes up things to fit them in. He did this before and he seems to be doing it again.

[Randy Twizzle]

One problem with Burns' films is that he allows whatever visual material he can find to dictate the direction, and when he allows unidentified clips to trigger his fantasy, he simply makes up things to fit them in. He did this before and he seems to be doing it again.

Can you give any example of this from the first 2 episodes?

[medjuck]

One problem with Burns' films is that he allows whatever visual material he can find to dictate the direction, and when he allows unidentified clips to trigger his fantasy, he simply makes up things to fit them in. He did this before and he seems to be doing it again.

Can you give any example of this from the first 2 episodes?

I've always presumed that he does the opposite. ie. put together his interviews, and then find film footage to illustrate them I usually find the interviews interesting, but the clips rather random. Since he doesn't source them we never really know where they're from. Is the footage actually of the battle being discussed? Is it even from the same continent? In Jazz if you were familiar with the footage you became aware that he even played different music on the soundtrack than that being played by the musicians on the visual track. Ilike documentaries taht explain where there footagae is from and how it came to be.

[Christiern]

Accuracy in reporting is not something Burns demands--in fact, he cares little for facts or correct identification. When his people asked me for a photo that Burns was eager to use, because it was "a great shot of Louis [Armstrong]." I told them that it wasn't Louis at all. They used it anyway and moved the camera past the other people in the shot, to a closeup of "Louis." The photo was actually a candid shot from Lil Armstrong's wedding to her first husband--Louis hadn't even arrived in Chicago.

The Burns people had a film clip of 1920s cars driving through Central Park--it bore no relationship to the story at hand, but he wanted to use it, so he invented a little story about Fletcher Henderson and Will Marion Cook liking to discuss arrangements while riding through Central Park in a taxi.

[Chuck Nessa]

Accuracy in reporting is not something Burns demands--in fact, he cares little for facts or correct identification. When his people asked me for a photo that Burns was eager to use, because it was "a great shot of Louis [Armstrong]." I told them that it wasn't Louis at all. They used it anyway and moved the camera past the other people in the shot, to a closeup of "Louis." The photo was actually a candid shot from Lil Armstrong's wedding to her first husband--Louis hadn't even arrived in Chicago.

The Burns people had a film clip of 1920s cars driving through Central Park--it bore no relationship to the story at hand, but he wanted to use it, so he invented a little story about Fletcher Henderson and Will Marion Cook liking to discuss arrangements while riding through Central Park in a taxi.

Back when they were doing the "jazz" series I got a call from one of his assistants asking if we could negotiate a deal for some of my "copyrighted" material. I said ok. She responded with something like "well, most folks are offering material for free so if you don't say yes your material is OUT!

[RDK]

Accuracy in reporting is not something Burns demands--in fact, he cares little for facts or correct identification. When his people asked me for a photo that Burns was eager to use, because it was "a great shot of Louis [Armstrong]." I told them that it wasn't Louis at all. They used it anyway and moved the camera past the other people in the shot, to a closeup of "Louis." The photo was actually a candid shot from Lil Armstrong's wedding to her first husband--Louis hadn't even arrived in Chicago.

The Burns people had a film clip of 1920s cars driving through Central Park--it bore no relationship to the story at hand, but he wanted to use it, so he invented a little story about Fletcher Henderson and Will Marion Cook liking to discuss arrangements while riding through Central Park in a taxi.

Back when they were doing the "jazz" series I got a call from one of his assistants asking if we could negotiate a deal for some of my "copyrighted" material. I said ok. She responded with something like "well, most folks are offering material for free so if you don't say yes your material is OUT!

Heh. Not surprising. While Burns has a budget, most docs are made on the cheap. I would think that, with jazz at least, most owners would offer up their work to be seen/heard by a potential audience of millions.

[Adam]

One problem with Burns' films is that he allows whatever visual material he can find to dictate the direction, and when he allows unidentified clips to trigger his fantasy, he simply makes up things to fit them in. He did this before and he seems to be doing it again.

Can you give any example of this from the first 2 episodes?

I've always presumed that he does the opposite. ie. put together his interviews, and then find film footage to illustrate them I usually find the interviews interesting, but the clips rather random. Since he doesn't source them we never really know where they're from. Is the footage actually of the battle being discussed? Is it even from the same continent? In Jazz if you were familiar with the footage you became aware that he even played different music on the soundtrack than that being played by the musicians on the visual track. Ilike documentaries taht explain where there footagae is from and how it came to be.

Medjuck is more on the mark, based on my experience making documentaries. The stories desired are accumulated first, then the footage is located, using whatever is possible. Obviously there is, for example, no footage or stills of Henderson & Cook in Central Park, so you need to use something to cover it, and you use the footage of cars in Central Park. If you can find nothing, you cut the story perhaps, or write it differently (if you're telling it as narration) or keep the speaker on screen (if an interview). One doesn't just invent stories out of thin air.

It is ridiculous that they expect peopel to give them music for free. I always pay for music licenses, for shows with far lower budgets. Getting a composer is much cheaper, which is probably the main reason he has composition for "The War" as opposed to music from the period. The music licensing could easily have run several hundred thousand dollars.