Rare 'Retha

[Tom Storer]

Grow up, Tom or get lost

Now calm down, edc. No need to lose your cool.

You wanna play anti-intellectual, yr a regular Sviatoslav Richter; if you want any props as a cultural historian or critic... maybe you are that ____bag; sorry I actually thought more highly of you, you must have had an "early peak" but it's still instructive to recognize the limits of colloquy.

As a matter of fact, it's because I recognize the limits of colloquy that I bowed out of the attempt to determine how many angels Aretha can call on the head of a pin. This is also a place where people can make casual comments and leave it at that--that is, not seek props as a cultural historian or "play anti-intellectual."

You're a man with plenty of substance, clem, but your style gets in the way.

[Harold_Z]

Those later Johnny Quitar Watson sides are full of gems.

Go ahead, let him ta-ta ya'.

He was such a GASSS!

[John L]

Meanwhile, the questions still stand & Christgau alone-- not a noted jazzbo (see his blurb on the Ratliff book)-- alone is addressing them.

Thanks, Clem. Of course, I realize that I will have to do a lot more homework before I can expect a direct response to a question from the Titans. But it is still useful to know that I am on the wrong track.

[AllenLowe]

as long as somebody mentioned Tina Turner (he said, sidestepping the main argument here, which was giving him a headache) I would say that she IS out of the sanctified tradition - I have an old LP on Kent or some such label which is allegedly her and Ike and the Review recorded "live" - and I say "allegedly" because in those days they made plenty of bogus "live" albums - that's the closes thing I've ever heard to a fly-on-the wall in the club in the neighborhood where-the-white-dare-not-go. Probably the real thing, crowd noises and all, and should be heard by anybody who does not frighten too easily.

[Hot Ptah]

Let's start a new thread--"Duke Ellington Wasn't Really All That Good." We could really have fun with that one.

[JSngry]

Let's start a new thread--"Duke Ellington Wasn't Really All That Good." We could really have fun with that one.

And there would be plenty of material that, listened to from a certain perspective, could justify that. I've known some militant Kentonites who, back in the day, would go there. Loudly & proudly.

Selected realiity allows you to believe, claim, and prove damn near anything.

The entirety, though, seldom does. So we all choose.

Grey is not my favorite color, but when all subjectivity is removed, that's usally all that's left. And that is why I make the choices I make.

[alocispepraluger102]

as long as somebody mentioned Tina Turner (he said, sidestepping the main argument here, which was giving him a headache) I would say that she IS out of the sanctified tradition - I have an old LP on Kent or some such label which is allegedly her and Ike and the Review recorded "live" - and I say "allegedly" because in those days they made plenty of bogus "live" albums - that's the closes thing I've ever heard to a fly-on-the wall in the club in the neighborhood where-the-white-dare-not-go. Probably the real thing, crowd noises and all, and should be heard by anybody who does not frighten too easily.

rethas 'yeah' is a studio 'live' album.

wonder if the original tapes are messed up, too?

Edited October 29, 2007 by alocispepraluger102

[Harold_Z]

as long as somebody mentioned Tina Turner (he said, sidestepping the main argument here, which was giving him a headache) I would say that she IS out of the sanctified tradition - I have an old LP on Kent or some such label which is allegedly her and Ike and the Review recorded "live" - and I say "allegedly" because in those days they made plenty of bogus "live" albums - that's the closes thing I've ever heard to a fly-on-the wall in the club in the neighborhood where-the-white-dare-not-go. Probably the real thing, crowd noises and all, and should be heard by anybody who does not frighten too easily.

rethas 'yeah' is a studio 'live' album.

wonder if the original tapes are messed up, too?

"Yeah" is a good album. Kenny Burrell is on it and it swings pretty nicely. Generally I think the Columbia stuff is underrated. I find myself liking the Columbia's more and more.

I have the Ike and Tina "Live" lp Allen mentions. It's a killer. She kicks it off with Please Please Please and goes on from there. There were three early "live" Ike and Tina lps that I really dug. This one, one on Warner Bros and another on Loma (which I think is a Warner's subsidiary). All three of them kick butt.

[Alexander]

as long as somebody mentioned Tina Turner (he said, sidestepping the main argument here, which was giving him a headache) I would say that she IS out of the sanctified tradition - I have an old LP on Kent or some such label which is allegedly her and Ike and the Review recorded "live" - and I say "allegedly" because in those days they made plenty of bogus "live" albums - that's the closes thing I've ever heard to a fly-on-the wall in the club in the neighborhood where-the-white-dare-not-go. Probably the real thing, crowd noises and all, and should be heard by anybody who does not frighten too easily.

rethas 'yeah' is a studio 'live' album.

wonder if the original tapes are messed up, too?

"Yeah" is a good album. Kenny Burrell is on it and it swings pretty nicely. Generally I think the Columbia stuff is underrated. I find myself liking the Columbia's more and more.

I have the Ike and Tina "Live" lp Allen mentions. It's a killer. She kicks it off with Please Please Please and goes on from there. There were three early "live" Ike and Tina lps that I really dug. This one, one on Warner Bros and another on Loma (which I think is a Warner's subsidiary). All three of them kick butt.

I've been looking for an entry point for Ike and Tina. Are any of their albums on CD? What should one pick up first?

[John L]

There was an Ike & Tina live album that I played the hell out of in my 60s childhood. I can't remember its name. It was a good representation of the Review live. It started out with Sweet Soul Music ("spot light is on me, y'all"), then went into Son of a Preacher Man, and never let up.

The Ike and Tina Turner Review was something like a life-changing experience for me. When I was 11-years old, my father took me to the Review. We sat in about the third row, right underneath Tina and the Ikettes miniskirts. I was completely blown away both in mind and body.

As far as recommendations, you might look at some of the hits compilations. Try to find one with the 45 version of River Deep, Mountain High, which is much more direct and powerful than the 33 album version. I have it on a 4-CD 100 song compilation that was released a while back on a questionable European label. Outside of the hits and the live albums, there are the straight blues sessions that Ike and Tina recorded for Blue Thumb records. They are very worthwhile (IMO), and as much for Ike's blistering guitar playing as for Tina.

Edited October 30, 2007 by John L

[Harold_Z]

as long as somebody mentioned Tina Turner (he said, sidestepping the main argument here, which was giving him a headache) I would say that she IS out of the sanctified tradition - I have an old LP on Kent or some such label which is allegedly her and Ike and the Review recorded "live" - and I say "allegedly" because in those days they made plenty of bogus "live" albums - that's the closes thing I've ever heard to a fly-on-the wall in the club in the neighborhood where-the-white-dare-not-go. Probably the real thing, crowd noises and all, and should be heard by anybody who does not frighten too easily.

rethas 'yeah' is a studio 'live' album.

wonder if the original tapes are messed up, too?

"Yeah" is a good album. Kenny Burrell is on it and it swings pretty nicely. Generally I think the Columbia stuff is underrated. I find myself liking the Columbia's more and more.

I have the Ike and Tina "Live" lp Allen mentions. It's a killer. She kicks it off with Please Please Please and goes on from there. There were three early "live" Ike and Tina lps that I really dug. This one, one on Warner Bros and another on Loma (which I think is a Warner's subsidiary). All three of them kick butt.

I've been looking for an entry point for Ike and Tina. Are any of their albums on CD? What should one pick up first?

This has the Warner Bros and Loma lps I mentioned earlier.

This has the material recorded for Sue records that pretty much first brought Ike and Tina to national R&B prominence. Early and essential.

The live lp Allen mentions is available on cd (I couldn't get the link to copy) as "The Ike and tina turner Review" on Kent.

[AllenLowe]

just a point of info, there is a Kent CD of Ike and Tina live which is not the same as the LP I refer to; the CD that ACE distributes of the Kent show is recorded, I think, 1970 or 1971 (not certain); the LP I refer to is likely early to mid-1960s.

[Harold_Z]

just a point of info, there is a Kent CD of Ike and Tina live which is not the same as the LP I refer to; the CD that ACE distributes of the Kent show is recorded, I think, 1970 or 1971 (not certain); the LP I refer to is likely early to mid-1960s.

Allen, here's the playlist from the cd I was looking at. It includes everything on the old kent lp. For some reason I can't get the link from amazon to post here.

1. Please, Please, Please

2. If I Can't Be the First

3. Feelin' Good -

4. Love of My Man - Venetta Fields,

5. Think - Bobby John,

6. Drown in My Own Tears -

7. I Love the Way You Love - Robbie Montgomery

8. For Your Precious Love - Vernon Guy,

9. All in My Mind

10. Am I a Fool in Love

11. All I Could Do Was Cry/Please, Please, Please

12. My Man He's a Loving Man

13. I Know You Don't Love Me No More

14. It's Gonna Work Out Fine

15. Way You Love Me

16. I Can't Stop Lovin' You

17. You Should Have Treated Me Right

edit to add: One tune from the lp might be missing, but they are kinda loose with the titles so it may not be. That is the last tune on the lp "I can't believe what You Say." Then some of the extra material looks like it might be duplicated from the first Warner lp.

Edited October 30, 2007 by Harold_Z

[AllenLowe]

thanks - I'll try to pull the LP tonight and compare titles -

[John L]

just a point of info, there is a Kent CD of Ike and Tina live which is not the same as the LP I refer to; the CD that ACE distributes of the Kent show is recorded, I think, 1970 or 1971 (not certain); the LP I refer to is likely early to mid-1960s.

Allen, here's the playlist from the cd I was looking at. It includes everything on the old kent lp. For some reason I can't get the link from amazon to post here.

1. Please, Please, Please

2. If I Can't Be the First

3. Feelin' Good -

4. Love of My Man - Venetta Fields,

5. Think - Bobby John,

6. Drown in My Own Tears -

7. I Love the Way You Love - Robbie Montgomery

8. For Your Precious Love - Vernon Guy,

9. All in My Mind

10. Am I a Fool in Love

11. All I Could Do Was Cry/Please, Please, Please

12. My Man He's a Loving Man

13. I Know You Don't Love Me No More

14. It's Gonna Work Out Fine

15. Way You Love Me

16. I Can't Stop Lovin' You

17. You Should Have Treated Me Right

edit to add: One tune from the lp might be missing, but they are kinda loose with the titles so it may not be. That is the last tune on the lp "I can't believe what You Say." Then some of the extra material looks like it might be duplicated from the first Warner lp.

Here is the cover.

Edited October 31, 2007 by John L

[Harold_Z]

Thanks John

[AllenLowe]

that's, I think, the ACE CD from the late 1960s, early 1970s. I found the LP last night but did not have time to compare - however it has a different title and it's on United - I promise I will report back tonight -

[Harold_Z]

The lp I have is on Kent. It has a white cover with Tina wearing a pinkish red dress and Ike standing directly behind her holding a strat that matches her dress.

The title is "Ike and Tina Turner Revue Live" is large print. Smaller print "Recorded live at Club Imperial, and Harlem Club St Louis, Missouri."

United, if I recall correctly, sometimes reissued Kent things with pretty much the same packaging. I think there was some BB King and Elmore James for example that were like that. The Kent is definitely early or early mid 60s, Again - if memory serves I bought it around '64. By the late 60s, Ike and Tina were doing a different repertoire.

For those of you not as old as us old farts - these records were usually found in drugstores, supermarkets, and five and tens for $1.98. Or less. That's Kent, Crown, United, etc.

[AllenLowe]

who you calling an old fart? just because the first Charlie Parker record I ever bought was purchased at the A&P in Massapequa, circa 1968 -

allright...first one to ask "what's the A &P?" will have to answer to Harold -

[danasgoodstuff]

To get back to Aretha (please), here's a thought...maybe she didn't lose 'it', she just hasn't had any worthwhile material to expend 'it' on, or any producers capable of coaxing 'it' out of her on a regular basis. I submit for your consideration, "Look to the Rainbow" from 1986.

[danasgoodstuff]

Here's another thought, does she play piano on anything after the early '70s?

[John L]

To get back to Aretha (please), here's a thought...maybe she didn't lose 'it', she just hasn't had any worthwhile material to expend 'it' on, or any producers capable of coaxing 'it' out of her on a regular basis. I submit for your consideration, "Look to the Rainbow" from 1986.

I interpret "lose it" here in a relative sense. Aretha is still a fine singer (although very recent years have not been too kind to her voice), but she perhaps lost that special edge some time ago that made her earlier Atlantic work so incredible and timeless. I would say that the first decline in average quality in the latter 70s had more to do with less inspired material on average than Aretha herself (IMO). From the 80s on, however, I would say that Aretha herself is different. I listen to later Aretha every now and again, and like some of it very much. But it is almost like listening to a different singer. Part of it is a physical change in her voice, which deepened but lost some of its subtlety (IMO). The level of insipiration seems to have diminished somewhat as well.

Still, if I were to choose Aretha albums for a dance party, I would first take "Who's Zoomin' Who" and "Jump to It" from the 1980s.

The 1980s gospel album, "One Lord, One Faith, One Baptism" has some really fine moments as well. In some ways, it feels even more sincere than Amazing Grace.

I like some of her more recent records too: "A Rose is Still A Rose" and "So Damn Happy." They may not be the same masterpieces for the ages as the early Atlantic albums, but they are still very enjoyable for what they are.

Edited November 1, 2007 by John L

[danasgoodstuff]

I just sent off a dual review of this and the On the Corner box, If any of you can stand to read any more I'll post a link if it gets published (is that still the right word for things which only appear online?)

[Dan Gould]

I just sent off a dual review of this and the On the Corner box, If any of you can stand to read any more I'll post a link if it gets published (is that still the right word for things which only appear online?)

My title used to be Manager of Web Publishing so I would say "yes".

[Dan Gould]

Up for Clem, (especially since the 'Retha discussion died out) who never told me where he thinks Jimmy McCracklin fits in the soul genre. I'm also now curious about Little Junior Parker, as I just started listening to three different LP comps of his Duke recordings ... smooth but powerful vocals the way label-mate (and touring partner) Bobby Bland was - and really really great!

Speaking of Bland, I also just found a Japanese CD of two of his Duke LPs - almost no overlap with "Two Steps From The Blues" but I'd never heard his cover (there's that word again) of Fulson's "Reconsider Baby" but it struck me as an all-time great recording.