whats up with this art blakey/tyronne washington

[bertrand]

I posted on Facebook and tagged George Cables. He does not remrmber.

Edited Thursday at 02:47 PM by bertrand

[Niko]

Is the tape the same as this bootleg cd?

https://www.discogs.com/release/12482240-Woody-Shaw-Quintet-Featuring-Art-Blakey-Jersey-Blues?srsltid=AfmBOooEW1nKbRQwm8Lyzv9iOpcLq3TlspvPSXg6RsNu7RtxQ1gWsnxC

Read the relevant passage in Carlos Garnett's autobiography and he mentions playing a "burning solo" in A Night in Tunisia on a live tape from New Jersey... But he doesn't mention whom he replaced, only that Woody Shaw recommended him to Blakey

[bertrand]

42 minutes ago, Niko said:

Is the tape the same as this bootleg cd?

https://www.discogs.com/release/12482240-Woody-Shaw-Quintet-Featuring-Art-Blakey-Jersey-Blues?srsltid=AfmBOooEW1nKbRQwm8Lyzv9iOpcLq3TlspvPSXg6RsNu7RtxQ1gWsnxC

Read the relevant passage in Carlos Garnett's autobiography and he mentions playing a "burning solo" in A Night in Tunisia on a live tape from New Jersey... But he doesn't mention whom he replaced, only that Woody Shaw recommended him to Blakey

Which tape are you referring to? The one from March from the Loeb center?

Rutgers is from April and by then it was definitely Carlos. If Tyrone was there at all, it was briefly in March. Billy Harper was before that. So Carlos replaced either Billy or Tyrone.

[Niko]

Guess my question is how many tapes there are in total... There's a scenario where everything is a subset of this 2cd set of music which comes, most likely, from Rutgers

https://www.discogs.com/release/7082752-Art-Blakey-The-Jazz-Messengers-Rutgers-University-NJ-April-15th-1969

But there are also scenarios where there are separate tapes of either the March or April NYU gigs or both... What they all seem to have in common is a 20+ minute version of A Night in Tunisia 

[david weiss]

I apparently have a bootleg copy of this that I actually purchased a while back.

My copy says Tyrone Washington as well.

I'd have to listen to this. little more closely to see if I think it's him.

I was also intrigued by the unknown tune. It's a nice tune though perhaps a little underdeveloped.

 

 

[bertrand]

28 minutes ago, david weiss said:

I apparently have a bootleg copy of this that I actually purchased a while back.

My copy says Tyrone Washington as well.

I'd have to listen to this. little more closely to see if I think it's him.

I was also intrigued by the unknown tune. It's a nice tune though perhaps a little underdeveloped.

 

 

It's not Taurus Woman, I assume?

Edited Thursday at 11:12 PM by bertrand

[John L]

2 hours ago, bertrand said:

It's not Taurus Woman, I assume?

It is Taurus Woman.  That is one reason why I think it is Carlos Garnett.  Like Rooster wrote, it sounds more like him than Tyrone Washington.   

[bertrand]

It has to be Garnett then. This tune would not have been in the repertoire before Carlos joined since it is his tune.

Remains the mystery of why Tyrone was credited. Could it be an error in the Coda review?

I thought it might be that tune since it was also the mystery tune on a Blakey Newport recording with Shaw/Garnett/Cables I had bought at Wolfgang's Vault. I think we figured it out on this forum, perhaps someone can find the thread.

All in a day's work for the Organissimo Jazz detectives!

[JSngry]

Woody was tight with Tyrone around that time. So maybe he got him on the band for a quick minute?

[david weiss]

2 hours ago, bertrand said:

It has to be Garnett then. This tune would not have been in the repertoire before Carlos joined since it is his tune.

Remains the mystery of why Tyrone was credited. Could it be an error in the Coda review?

I thought it might be that tune since it was also the mystery tune on a Blakey Newport recording with Shaw/Garnett/Cables I had bought at Wolfgang's Vault. I think we figured it out on this forum, perhaps someone can find the thread.

All in a day's work for the Organissimo Jazz detectives!

Hold the phone folks.

I don't think this is Taurus Woman at least not how I heard it on the Garnett album "Black Love" or the Blakey Newport 1969.

Tyrone and Woody were certainly Newark buddies....

[bertrand]

Taurus Woman is also on the Roy Brooks Left Bank Understanding CD.

[Niko]

21 hours ago, bertrand said:

Yes, 3/20, dumb typo.

I wonder how Tyrone's name got in the mix. I am also curious as to what the Untitled piece is.

I could now see a snippet of that CODA article on google books. The line-up with Washington is reported there for the Montreal gig - however, unfortunately, without a precise date... 

but that date could be found... the 23 February 1969 edition of a newspaper named La Patrie mentions that Blakey would be at the Black Bottom in Montreal from 10 to 15 March 1969. So together with the Coda article, that confirms Washington with Blakey in mid-March. 

[Niko]

the Rutgers gig is actually on youtube by now

in that case, the unknown tune is at 28:45 in the first video...

[bertrand]

Great! So now we have something in print mentioning Tyrone's presence. But does it say he appeared or is scheduled to appear? Is it after the fact?

It does sound like Tyrone was briefly in the band. I don't think the unidentified piece at Rutgers is Taurus Woman but I need to do more listening.

Edited yesterday at 12:18 PM by bertrand

[Niko]

The Coda article was written after the fact, my snippet does not have the full sentence but it's mentioned that the place "played host to Art Blakey with Tyrone Washington, Woody Shaw, George Cables and Scotty Holt". 

[medjuck]

3 hours ago, Niko said:

I could now see a snippet of that CODA article on google books. The line-up with Washington is reported there for the Montreal gig - however, unfortunately, without a precise date... 

but that date could be found... the 23 February 1969 edition of a newspaper named La Patrie mentions that Blakey would be at the Black Bottom in Montreal from 10 to 15 March 1969. So together with the Coda article, that confirms Washington with Blakey in mid-March. 

The Black Bottom!  I remember it being a really small place.  (I could be wrong-- it was 60 years ago.) 

[bertrand]

2 hours ago, Niko said:

The Coda article was written after the fact, my snippet does not have the full sentence but it's mentioned that the place "played host to Art Blakey with Tyrone Washington, Woody Shaw, George Cables and Scotty Holt". 

I think that pretty much proves it. Blakey certainly announced his name.

Not we have to wonder how Tyrone got in at all and why his stay was so brief. I assume this was after his tenure with Horace Silver but we know that was brief because Horace was dissatisfied with his outside playing.

Bertrand.

 

[Niko]

Carlos Garnett said he got the job via Woody Shaw - so it seems natural to speculate that Tyrone Washington came via Shaw as well, they'd collaborated quite a bit by that time... Why it didn't last longer is a good one... In the months afterwards, Downbeat listed quite a few leader gigs for Washington... So maybe he decided his sideman years were over ...

Edited yesterday at 04:31 PM by Niko

[david weiss]

17 hours ago, bertrand said:

Taurus Woman is also on the Roy Brooks Left Bank Understanding CD.

Yes it is and it sounds like the other versions of Taurus Woman on the Garnett album "Black Love" and the Blakey Newport 1969.

However, the track in question is not Taurus Woman but it is the same tune as the unknown tune on the Rutgers concert. I like the Rutgers version a little better, they play the tune better as if they've played it a few times by then....

 

[felser]

Could Washington have just been a temporary sub for Garnett, rather than preceding or replacing him?  Just speculating.

[bertrand]

1 minute ago, felser said:

Could Washington have just been a temporary sub for Garnett, rather than preceding or replacing him?  Just speculating.

I wondered about that too. Maybe he only played the Montreal dates and not NYU which is why it sounds like Garnett on that date.

The guy to ask is Tyrone himself!

[felser]

26 minutes ago, bertrand said:

The guy to ask is Tyrone himself!

We'd have a LOT of questions for him!

[JSngry]

56 minutes ago, felser said:

Could Washington have just been a temporary sub for Garnett, rather than preceding or replacing him?  Just speculating.

Blakey did not have a real band in those days. He was working with essentially pickup bands, and as I understand it,  Woody was the guy who took care of the hiring. Club bookings as available, occasional foreign mini-tours, nothing resembling a full itinerary.

I could see a scenario where one could make one gig but not the other, and)or vice-versa. So not really anybody subbing, just people making individual dates.

But it does look like Garnett became first call for what gigs there were, because he shows up on the 1970 Japanese date with Joanne Brackeen.

I'm very much under the impression that  Art Blakey was ..full of surprises, if you know what I mean.

[bertrand]

1 hour ago, felser said:

We'd have a LOT of questions for him!

I know two people who did get to interview him in the last 15 years or so, so he is not refusing to talk about his career. I believe he attended Howard University right here in DC.