Origins of Smooth Jazz -- Not a surprise

[Big Beat Steve]

Well, MG, now it's my turn to tell YOU I don't quite get what you are out to say.

Does "Smooth Jazz" BENEFIT the JAZZ community?

Or does it benefit some soft instrumental pop pap "community" because in addition to providing the music it provides them with a hip, in-crowd moniker that they can cling to?

"Even if I don't get the essence of actual jazz now I am a hip jazz fan too because I am into "smooth JAZZ" and this is soooo much cooler than having to be into "smooth adult entertainment background music". ??? :D

In short, call a spade a spade and stop coming up with false pretenses, that's all the REAL jazz fans seem to be after(including in THIS thread).

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

Well, MG, now it's my turn to tell YOU I don't quite get what you are out to say.

Does "Smooth Jazz" BENEFIT the JAZZ community?

Or does it benefit some soft instrumental pop pap "community" because in addition to providing the music it provides them with a hip, in-crowd moniker that they can cling to?

"Even if I don't get the essence of actual jazz now I am a hip jazz fan too because I am into "smooth JAZZ" and this is soooo much cooler than having to be into "smooth adult entertainment background music". ??? :D

In short, call a spade a spade and stop coming up with false pretenses, that's all the REAL jazz fans seem to be after(including in THIS thread).

Yeah, you really didn't get me. My post wasn't anything to do with smooth jazz. It was just a general comment on what that sociologist had said and the general attitude.

MG

[AllenLowe]

we should not confuse cause and effect - meaning, the consultants got involved because there was a big audience for this and money to be made, not the other way around; they would have done the same thing if bebop was a gold standard investment. Hey, if there was $$$$ in snuff movies they'd be out there hiring the homeless right now - and Berigan would be a big star -

jazz people are a bit too paranoid about the big music execs conspiring to screw them - sure those execs are morons, but they are moron advocates for anything that will make them some cash - there have always been a few who care about quality; even Lundvall, who is basically full of shit, has some impulse in this direction.

but we all know that bebop and free jazz and new music will NEVER sell like the Yellow Jackets.

problem beyond this is that the idiots making this music start to believe their own notices - hence Kenny Gorelick and even that guy Bella (?) who plays banjo think they are the shit - give me a break -

(going blank on that guy's name; he can play, but can't tell the difference betweer mu-ZIK and mu-ZAK -)

Edited February 26, 2008 by AllenLowe

[king ubu]

Bela Bartok, Bela Balazs?

[Jim Alfredson]

we should not confuse cause and effect - meaning, the consultants got involved because there was a big audience for this and money to be made, not the other way around; they would have done the same thing if bebop was a gold standard investment.

Exactly, which is what I said in my post. The suits may have helped dilute the music more and they might have even come up with the term "smooth jazz", but the lineage of the music itself extends straight out of jazz's evolution (or devolution, like Sangry said). That is the part of the original post that I take umbrage with; that smooth jazz has no relation to "real" jazz.

(going blank on that guy's name; he can play, but can't tell the difference betweer mu-ZIK and mu-ZAK -)

Bela Fleck

Don't agree with you there, but hey...

[Hot Ptah]

Picking up on The Magnificent Goldberg's idea about music and the community, has anyone read about the popularity of smooth jazz in the African American community? I believe that it is very popular among African Americans, based on what I have read (which may not be everything on the subject).

Based solely on anecdotal information (which I used to malign when Ronald Reagan used it), I would go so far as to say that for a large percentage of the African American community in the U.S., smooth jazz is what they think of when they hear the word jazz.

One direct anecdotal example, I bought a series ticket to the jazz concerts at the Gem Theater at 18th and Vine, which is a nearly 100% African American section of Kansas City. I did not want to go to the Najee concert, so I stood in front of the theater before the show and tried to sell my ticket (no takers.) Other than my seat, the show was sold out, and over 95 per cent of the people who passed by me to go into the theater were African American. This is a far greater percentage of African Americans than the audience for the mainstream jazz shows at the Gem. I would estimate that less than 25 per cent of the audience was African American for McCoy Tyner, Ahmad Jamal, Dee Dee Bridgewater, Herbie Hancock, Wayne Shorter, and other concerts presented at the Gem, even though the theater is right in the middle of tha African American community.

The African Americans who attended the Najee concert were better dressed than the typical Gem Theater jazz audience, by many degrees of magnitude. A large percentage of the Najee audience seemed to be over 40 years old.

The Najee concert was the first jazz concert at the Gem Theater which seemed to strongly appeal to the community which lives around the theater, in the ten years in which I have been attending the Gem Theater concerts (starting in the first year they were ever presented).

[Dan Gould]

Picking up on The Magnificent Goldberg's idea about music and the community, has anyone read about the popularity of smooth jazz in the African American community? I believe that it is very popular among African Americans, based on what I have read (which may not be everything on the subject).

Based solely on anecdotal information (which I used to malign when Ronald Reagan used it), I would go so far as to say that for a large percentage of the African American community in the U.S., smooth jazz is what they think of when they hear the word jazz.

One direct anecdotal example, I bought a series ticket to the jazz concerts at the Gem Theater at 18th and Vine, which is a nearly 100% African American section of Kansas City. I did not want to go to the Najee concert, so I stood in front of the theater before the show and tried to sell my ticket (no takers.) Other than my seat, the show was sold out, and over 95 per cent of the people who passed by me to go into the theater were African American. This is a far greater percentage of African Americans than the audience for the mainstream jazz shows at the Gem. I would estimate that less than 25 per cent of the audience was African American for McCoy Tyner, Ahmad Jamal, Dee Dee Bridgewater, Herbie Hancock, Wayne Shorter, and other concerts presented at the Gem, even though the theater is right in the middle of tha African American community.

The African Americans who attended the Najee concert were better dressed than the typical Gem Theater jazz audience, by many degrees of magnitude. A large percentage of the Najee audience seemed to be over 40 years old.

The Najee concert was the first jazz concert at the Gem Theater which seemed to strongly appeal to the community which lives around the theater, in the ten years in which I have been attending the Gem Theater concerts (starting in the first year they were ever presented).

As I mentioned above, I saw Boney James, who is without a doubt the most pathetic of all the smooth jazzers aside from the G-Spot, win an award on a BET broadcast of some black music award ceremony.

Also, I don't doubt that Smooth Jazz appeals to a certain African American demographic - professional, middle class and above, their kids listen to rap/hip hop but they don't care for it. These are people who grew up listening to Gladys Knight and Grover Washington and George Benson in the post-Civil Rights era, and smooth jazz fits their lifestyle.

[BruceH]

To go a bit back in history: Take former jazz artists such as Nat King Cole and their much later pop hits. Would these still be considered jazz? Would you consider these part of the history of JAZZ?

A footnote to the history, perhaps, but maybe not "jazz" in and of themselves.

[AllenLowe]

I have heard some nice things by Bela Fleck - but his touch is on the banjo bothers me - too smooth, calculated, pre-planned, not sure if I can out it in precise words - I like more of a flailing sound on that instrument -

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

Picking up on The Magnificent Goldberg's idea about music and the community, has anyone read about the popularity of smooth jazz in the African American community? I believe that it is very popular among African Americans, based on what I have read (which may not be everything on the subject).

Based solely on anecdotal information (which I used to malign when Ronald Reagan used it), I would go so far as to say that for a large percentage of the African American community in the U.S., smooth jazz is what they think of when they hear the word jazz.

One direct anecdotal example, I bought a series ticket to the jazz concerts at the Gem Theater at 18th and Vine, which is a nearly 100% African American section of Kansas City. I did not want to go to the Najee concert, so I stood in front of the theater before the show and tried to sell my ticket (no takers.) Other than my seat, the show was sold out, and over 95 per cent of the people who passed by me to go into the theater were African American. This is a far greater percentage of African Americans than the audience for the mainstream jazz shows at the Gem. I would estimate that less than 25 per cent of the audience was African American for McCoy Tyner, Ahmad Jamal, Dee Dee Bridgewater, Herbie Hancock, Wayne Shorter, and other concerts presented at the Gem, even though the theater is right in the middle of tha African American community.

The African Americans who attended the Najee concert were better dressed than the typical Gem Theater jazz audience, by many degrees of magnitude. A large percentage of the Najee audience seemed to be over 40 years old.

The Najee concert was the first jazz concert at the Gem Theater which seemed to strongly appeal to the community which lives around the theater, in the ten years in which I have been attending the Gem Theater concerts (starting in the first year they were ever presented).

Without the direct experience you have, HP, that's how it's always seemed to me from over here.

Would you care to speculate whether a Chris Botti gig there would have had the same sort of turnout?

MG

[Dan Gould]

Not to answer for him but I'd say that Chris Botti has appeal across racial lines, but with a predominantly white audience overall. Kind of like the chick singer he's been backing.

[RDK]

Have their been any studies linking the rise in popularity of smooth jazz/instrumental pop with an increase in elevators and dental offices?

[Hot Ptah]

Picking up on The Magnificent Goldberg's idea about music and the community, has anyone read about the popularity of smooth jazz in the African American community? I believe that it is very popular among African Americans, based on what I have read (which may not be everything on the subject).

Based solely on anecdotal information (which I used to malign when Ronald Reagan used it), I would go so far as to say that for a large percentage of the African American community in the U.S., smooth jazz is what they think of when they hear the word jazz.

One direct anecdotal example, I bought a series ticket to the jazz concerts at the Gem Theater at 18th and Vine, which is a nearly 100% African American section of Kansas City. I did not want to go to the Najee concert, so I stood in front of the theater before the show and tried to sell my ticket (no takers.) Other than my seat, the show was sold out, and over 95 per cent of the people who passed by me to go into the theater were African American. This is a far greater percentage of African Americans than the audience for the mainstream jazz shows at the Gem. I would estimate that less than 25 per cent of the audience was African American for McCoy Tyner, Ahmad Jamal, Dee Dee Bridgewater, Herbie Hancock, Wayne Shorter, and other concerts presented at the Gem, even though the theater is right in the middle of tha African American community.

The African Americans who attended the Najee concert were better dressed than the typical Gem Theater jazz audience, by many degrees of magnitude. A large percentage of the Najee audience seemed to be over 40 years old.

The Najee concert was the first jazz concert at the Gem Theater which seemed to strongly appeal to the community which lives around the theater, in the ten years in which I have been attending the Gem Theater concerts (starting in the first year they were ever presented).

Without the direct experience you have, HP, that's how it's always seemed to me from over here.

Would you care to speculate whether a Chris Botti gig there would have had the same sort of turnout?

MG

The Gem Theater holds 500 people. Chris Botti has performed to sold out crowds of 1500 in Kansas City in the past two years, outside the African American neighborhood--at a casino, and at a country western club in the heart of the drinking/entertainment district. I suspect that if Chris Botti played at the Gem, that there would be many more white people in the audience, than for Najee.

[AllenLowe]

just to go back to Goldberg:

"Smooth Soul, and Smooth Jazz, seem to me to have been a reaction against the mechanistic and formularistic tendencies of Disco "

not to start trouble, but I also think the reaction against disco was homophobic - large gay audience and scene - and I can report this from personal experience of what people were saying at the time -

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

just to go back to Goldberg:

"Smooth Soul, and Smooth Jazz, seem to me to have been a reaction against the mechanistic and formularistic tendencies of Disco "

not to start trouble, but I also think the reaction against disco was homophobic - large gay audience and scene - and I can report this from personal experience of what people were saying at the time -

Yes, never occurred to me but that also rings true.

MG

[paul secor]

Shouldn't this be moved to the Miscellaneous - Non Political Forum? Seems like the discussion has become mostly sociological, not musical.

Edited February 27, 2008 by paul secor

[Parkertown]

Most people would call any music without words, "jazz."

[AllenLowe]

well, let's not forget Chuck's beer farts, than (referred to in another thread, lest you think I am strange) -

[Alexander]

just to go back to Goldberg:

"Smooth Soul, and Smooth Jazz, seem to me to have been a reaction against the mechanistic and formularistic tendencies of Disco "

not to start trouble, but I also think the reaction against disco was homophobic - large gay audience and scene - and I can report this from personal experience of what people were saying at the time -

In addition, I've read some pretty persuasive arguments that racisim was a factor in the anti-disco backlash. A lot of people equated disco with "black music." Kind of ironic that while that might have been the case in the beginning, by the time disco was at its popular height most of the top selling disco artists were white (Vicki Sue Robinson, the Bee Gees, KC and the Sunshine Band).

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

Kind of ironic that while that might have been the case in the beginning, by the time disco was at its popular height most of the top selling disco artists were white (Vicki Sue Robinson, the Bee Gees, KC and the Sunshine Band).

And Paul Whiteman and Benny Goodman. About the only kind of American black music that didn't happen to is Gospel, because there was always a white equivalent.

MG

[Harold_Z]

just to go back to Goldberg:

"Smooth Soul, and Smooth Jazz, seem to me to have been a reaction against the mechanistic and formularistic tendencies of Disco "

not to start trouble, but I also think the reaction against disco was homophobic - large gay audience and scene - and I can report this from personal experience of what people were saying at the time -

Yes, never occurred to me but that also rings true.

MG

Another factor for the reaction against Disco is is that Disco was above all dance music. A large segment of the white male audience doesn't dig dancing and hence went more for the metal, punk, etc where the dancing skills were minimized. Actually I think many of the people who like Smooth Jazz and Smooth Soul also liked Disco. IIRC "The Quiet Storm" programming on Radio was really a precursot to the "Smooth Jazz' statiions.

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

Another factor for the reaction against Disco is is that Disco was above all dance music. A large segment of the white male audience doesn't dig dancing and hence went more for the metal, punk, etc where the dancing skills were minimized.

That doesn't ring quite true as a generalisation, I think. Think back to the thirties and forties; everyone went dancing then. And that was also true for the Rock & Roll audience in the fifties. I think the development of rock in the sixties changed things. But the people who liked sixties/seventies Rock, wouldn't have liked Disco - not because it was for dancing, but because they thought it was rubbish.

MG

[AllenLowe]

I thought Vicki Sue Robinson (Turn the Beat Around) was African American -

[JSngry]

just to go back to Goldberg:

"Smooth Soul, and Smooth Jazz, seem to me to have been a reaction against the mechanistic and formularistic tendencies of Disco "

not to start trouble, but I also think the reaction against disco was homophobic - large gay audience and scene - and I can report this from personal experience of what people were saying at the time -

Yes, never occurred to me but that also rings true.

MG

Another factor for the reaction against Disco is is that Disco was above all dance music. A large segment of the white male audience doesn't dig dancing and hence went more for the metal, punk, etc where the dancing skills were minimized. Actually I think many of the people who like Smooth Jazz and Smooth Soul also liked Disco. IIRC "The Quiet Storm" programming on Radio was really a precursot to the "Smooth Jazz' statiions.

No more calls please, we have a winner.

And re:the dancing thing - I think you'll find that there was a cetain "elegant" quality to Disco/disco dancing that only partially translated as "gay" to a lot of "blue collar" or otherwise "primal"-oriented white males. In the Swing Era, even, to have heard my Dad tell it, a really good dancer was looked upon with a combination of envy & suspicion by the "regular" white males of his time. They fifured the guy was either a "wolf", a hustler, or secretly gay - until proven otherwise.

In the African-American & Hispanic-American communities, though, there (largely) wasn't this divide between "elegance" and heterosexuality. In fact, being a good dancer was (and often still is) a point of m"macho" pride. And women dig it. In the White communities, the preferred of dancing by moist males in the Rock And Beyond Era is a less elegant, more "overt" expression of...whatever you call it, tension, angst, raw sexual agression, whatever.

I find it interesting that now, as the Baby Boomer generation is aging, there seems to be a bit of resurgence in interest in "ballroom dancing". That may be mostly female-driven, but maybe guys are fuguring out that now that they're older, it's a good idea to show your woman your sensitive/elegant side as well as how much of a badass you are (or can be). MAybe a case of your residual testosterone memory wrting checks that your body no longer can cash at will?

Better late than never, perhaps...

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

And re:the dancing thing - I think you'll find that there was a cetain "elegant" quality to Disco/disco dancing that only partially translated as "gay" to a lot of "blue collar" or otherwise "primal"-oriented white males. In the Swing Era, even, to have heard my Dad tell it, a really good dancer was looked upon with a combination of envy & suspicion by the "regular" white males of his time. They fifured the guy was either a "wolf", a hustler, or secretly gay - until proven otherwise.

Well, well. As far as I've ever been able to find out, that wasn't the case over here. But maybe it just wouldn't have been talked about here.

MG