Charles Gayle

[clifford_thornton]

I made a comment in another thread that was curtly dismissive of the saxophonist/pianist Charles Gayle and his work. I was asked to elaborate and so I'll try to here. But more importantly, it'd be great to get others to share their opinions - positive and negative - on Gayle's work and maybe make some recommendations also.

As many of you here might be aware, I'm quite a fan of fire-and-brimstone saxophone playing - Arthur Doyle, Frank Lowe, Peter Brotzmann, Kenneth Terroade, Mats Gustafsson et al. Of course there's more than just "fire and brimstone" to those players, and maybe that's why I am not a huge fan of Gayle's work. I've never been able to detect much nuance in his playing and, though certain of his records are undeniably strong artistic statements and singular in their approach, he's not someone I return to often and I've stuck with very few of his albums. Sure, Kingdom Come (Knitting Factory) and Touchin' on Trane (FMP) are relentless, but the one I was struck by as showing some possibility was Shout! (Clean Feed) with Sirone and Gerald Cleaver. The reason? He played - albeit in a sort of sketchy fashion - a couple of "standards." Strangely, my impression of his follow-up was that it's kind of a limp reverting to the previous body of work.

I'll add that I haven't followed his piano/performance-art bag at all, so am only firsthand familiar with his saxophone playing and attendant power-trios.

Thoughts on Gayle or the area of music he occupies?

[Jams_Runt]

Oddly enough, I really love both Touchin' On Trane and Shout! but have never warmed to his KF works. I too like the wonky variety found on Shout! and found Gayle's version of "I Can't Get Started" particularly touching. The Trane album is energy music in the best sense, and to my ears a real tribute to late vintage Coltrane. For some reason the Knitting Factory albums don't sound as rich to me, only firey. I do have a soft spot for his first solo piano album, the one on KF. It's no great shakes, but it has a lot of feeling as Gayle plays some touching pre-bop piano. His second solo paino album, was fine as well, but I find myself playing the first one much more often than some albums I'd probably tell you I like better.

[Hot Ptah]

We have been discussing the different ways that a musician and an enthusiast listen to jazz in another thread. As a pure enthusiast, not a musician, I am not that fond of Gayle. In my limited fashion, I hear ideas which interest me in the solos of Albert Ayler, for example, even when the album sounds like "irritating racket" to my wife. But with Gayle, there is much intensity of sound, but I don't hear the interesting ideas very much, as I try to follow his playing very closely.

Gayle is one of those artists who make me wish I had a musician's background, so that I could really tell what the difference is between his approach and that of Frank Lowe or other saxophonists.

[clifford_thornton]

I have not been confident that Gayle knows the lineage of his instrument in the way that, say, Frank Lowe, Joe Rigby, James Finn or a host of other post-Ayler, post-post-Coltrane saxophonists do. I don't hear the quotes, extrapolations or reverent/referent moods that some others are very adept at creating. Though he's singular, I don't feel that he's entirely "original" even in his hardest, most paint-peeling work (somebody like Doyle certainly is, quality or not).

Mind you, I'm not a musician and not 1/10th of the listener that some of our non-musician board members surely are, but I don't have much conviction in Gayle's conviction. That said, I would like very much to gain insight that'd help convince me. So Mr. Runt, thanks for the recommendations.

[PHILLYQ]

I have a live one done on Ayler that I enjoyed, and he even plays(IIRC) 'Cherokee' on it.

[JSngry]

Not a huge Gayle fan myself, but I think he's at least a little more..."practiced" than he would want us to know. Just a hunch I get from listening.

Otherwise, I think he's kind of a "man out of his time", if you know what I mean, and that's a mixed bag, to put it mildly...

But the clown suit & street preacher things, hey, I love that. But apart from, not as a part of, the music.

Then again, when you're a man out of your time, some crazy shit is sure to sure to follow.

[clifford_thornton]

The whole idea of unlearning or de-learning an instrument or a music is pretty interesting. Then again, I've never been entirely convinced of how much "Little Bird" there truly was in Ayler, love his music and respect him though I do. (Not saying that I don't think Ayler could play - just that his way of playing or concept fell far outside the mainstream, and probably always did.)

Certainly, one shouldn't be expected to keep out of improvised music not knowing "time" or the changes - the contributions of musicians who otherwise might be ahistorical are legion.

[jimi089]

Not a huge Gayle fan myself, but I think he's at least a little more..."practiced" than he would want us to know. Just a hunch I get from listening.

Gayle "knows" more than is let on by the primitivist rediscovery schtick that accompanied his rediscovery.

Agreed with both of these sentiments.

CT, just out of curiosity, have you ever taken Mr. Gayle's music in live?

The reason I ask is that this was how I discovered him, live and absolutely killin' compared to the rest of the cats on stage (it was a Vision Fest thing). Definitely made me sit up and take notice and ask who is this guy? Nothing I've heard on record has compared since. It was not only passionate and intense, but also entirely appropriate to the setting of the music at the time, and I could tell that he could not only play, but also listen in a meaningful manner.

However, as I said, nothing on record has really done it for me like that one live encounter has. I saw him play piano live since then, but not sax, and his pianistics did little for me.

[clifford_thornton]

No, I have not. That's by chance more than planning.

[clifford_thornton]

I'm not gonna say I wouldn't be curious to hear the session he supposedly taped for ESP in 1973.

[Rob C]

I've never been entirely convinced of how much "Little Bird" there truly was in Ayler, love his music and respect him though I do.

Ha, me too. Of course, I'm skeptical of a lot of this type of received jazz lore: "Well, there's never been any evidence on tape or before any large audiences, but one time, at 3 in the morning, in someone's kitchen, Player X played this thing that's completely different from everything everybody ever heard him play in the entire rest of his career, and IT WAS AMAZING!"

Edited March 11, 2008 by Rob C

[clifford_thornton]

I mean, sometimes that stuff is true and if one is lucky enough to be there or somehow obtain a recording of it, well who am I to argue.

But there's also a legacy of work to deal with, and if that points in a different direction for the most part, that's what one should base things on for the time being.

[king ubu]

Hm, I'm ambivalent about Gayles, too - I love "Touchin' on Trane" but have never felt a need to check out much more... stumbled over a 2CD set on Knitting records ("More Live" or something?) and that one left me pretty uninterested.

As for Ayler, I have no clue, but on "My Name Is Albert Ayler", he tackles "Billie's Bounce" (and the opening tune is a standard, I think "On Green Dolphin Street"?), and he's not really succesful (but his free-ish version of "Summertime" is pure magic!)

[Rosco]

Touchin' is great and Consecration is another good one. I will probably get one or two others at some point but I don't really feel compelled to own too much of his stuff, especially when he's playing piano or viola.

[Late]

Gayle is a lot of fun live (I've only heard him once in person), especially when he sticks to the tenor. I can live without the piano, viola, and clown nose, but it seems to work for others. Somehow the live energy just doesn't make it into the recordings (at least for me). The poster (on telephone poles) that advertised his gig had a picture of him and a quote: "I will blow you through the wall." Always struck me as an unintended double entendre.

[Rob C]

I only have two Gayle discs, Touchin' on Trane, which is great, and the one on Ayler that came out a couple of years ago, which I think is okay. But agreed on seeing him live: I only saw him once, at the Hot House, probably around a decade ago. He played piano for the first half or so, and I was despairing. But then he ambled to the back of the stage and pulled out his tenor and proceeded to blow the roof off the joint. The sheer power of it was totally exhilirating. The only contender I've seen live is Brotzmann, but Gayle was even more powerful, I think. I felt like maybe that's what it would have felt like to witness Trane or something.

He didn't do any clown shtick or talk about abortion or anything, I'm happy to say.

[clifford_thornton]

Yes, his anti-gay and anti-abortion views aren't really my cup of tea, but I try to view him musically rather than with a raised eyebrow to his "social concerns."

[AndrewHill]

Thanks for starting this thread Clifford. Didn't know a whole lot about Gayle's bag except for the only disk I own of his, Kingdom Come, which maybe wasn't the best place to start. I also didn't really care for his piano playing on that disk, but it had Wm Parker and Sunny Murray on it and that was the original reason why I bought it in the first place as I was not entirely familiar with his name at the time. I enjoyed his music more when he was playing sax-that's when his music bacame more intense! Had no idea about the clown routine! It seems though, that Touchin' on Trane is the one to get, which will be added to my long lists of cds to get

Edited March 11, 2008 by Holy Ghost

[clifford_thornton]

Touchin' on Trane is OOP as an FMP disc, but Jazzwerkstatt has reissued it in the past month or so.

[AndrewHill]

Touchin' on Trane is OOP as an FMP disc, but Jazzwerkstatt has reissued it in the past month or so.

Is it really? Thanks for the heads up! I know a store that has it in stock-I'll have it by Thursday

[Nate Dorward]

Just thought I'd add that Gayle's Time Zones is a really, really good solo piano disc which would probably appeal to fans of Jaki Byard & Sun Ra's solo stuff. The man can play some great piano when he wants to, though you wouldn't guess it from some of his more random assaults on the instrument in the past.

[paul secor]

I like Gayle's Homeless (Silkheart) and Touchin' on Trane (FMP) - listened to that one again today. His playing on Cecil's Always a Pleasure didn't make an impression on me - perhaps it's time for another listen. I haven't felt a need for other recordings.

I may have heard Gayle in Buffalo in early 1968. I went to a concert where a saxophonist with a wild uncontrolled sound and style played. Didn't catch a name, but it may well have been Charles Gayle.

[clifford_thornton]

I may have heard Gayle in Buffalo in early 1968. I went to a concert where a saxophonist with a wild uncontrolled sound and style played. Didn't catch a name, but it may well have been Charles Gayle.

That sounds about right for locale and time period, when he first came upon the scene. Like I said, I believe he recorded something for ESP in the early '70s that went unreleased.

[B. Clugston]

I like Charles Gayle. He’s the real deal in terms of this kind of music, but listening to him is wearying in larger doses.

Touchin’ on Trane is very good. I quite like the Knitting Factory blowouts Repent and More Live, the former in particular is exhilarating stuff. Solo in Japan is recommended, especially for his treatment of a couple of traditional hymns. And then there’s the infamous rant on Victo (“They got a fancy word for killing people these days—they call it abortion!”).

I found diminished returns on Cecil Taylor’s Always A Pleasure after a few listens.

It would be interesting to hear music from Gayle's recording pre-history.

[Shannon Dickey]

I don't have a lot of time tonight, but let my opinion ring clear: Gayle Rox Sox.

Dig?

Mo' later.....

----HB