The Magnificent Goldberg Posted June 30, 2008 Author Report Share Posted June 30, 2008 I think MG meant "marketable vs relatively unknown" names. That's about it. Thought it would have been obvious, so I didn't make it clear. MG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Magnificent Goldberg Posted June 30, 2008 Author Report Share Posted June 30, 2008 Also worth remembering how commercially "out of fashion" many of those 1950s Verve leaders were outside of the Verve/JATP contexts. In that regard, Granz could be seen as much patron as employer, if one doesn't get too..."sentimental" about it. That's a very interesting remark, but I'm not sure what it means. The jazz that was "in fashion" in the fifties seems to have been mainly revivals of big bands - Harry James, Les Brown etc - or easy listening jazz - Sinatra -> Les Baxter, via Gleason, Freshmen, Shearing, Fitzgerald - very little "hardcore" jazz appears to have been "in fashion" - Ahmad Jamal and Garner are about the only exceptions. If you mean "in fashion" with the jazz public, well I don't really know what was in fashion with the jazz public in the fifties. I think white audiences were probably going for West Coast stuff, as well as the output from Verve. Possibly black audiences were more focused on Hard Bop, though honking sax men remained popular until the mid-fifties. Gross generalisations these and I hope they'll be read as approximations. If something like this is what you intended, then I can see your point. MG Cats like Hawk, Eldridge, Webster, etc had a hard time getting gigs in the 50s. Fact. Not "modern" enough. Oh right. I didn't appreciate that. So perhaps it's not entirely surprising that Ben and others hopped it to Europe. I always thought it was more to get away from racism than for economic reasons. Oh, and also because they were truly appreciated as giants here (separate from the economic aspect, that is). Thanks. MG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted June 30, 2008 Report Share Posted June 30, 2008 Remember, Ben hit L.A. first, before moving to Europe. Why? Hopes of more giggage. Getting away from the racism motivated a lot of cats, but simple economics - i.e. gigs - was the cold hard facts of life, one way or the other. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bruce talbot Posted June 30, 2008 Report Share Posted June 30, 2008 some of us, who were around at the time the albums by Ben, Roy, Tatum, Carter, Hodges etc came out, were immensely grateful to Granz for recording these guys at a time when they were at their most mature, artistically. There were occasional sets that were disappointing like 'Ben Webster and Associates' but the Hawk/Ben, Roy/Tatum, Diz Afro Suite, Hodges Side by Side and Back to Back to name just a few, are musical treasures that would never have seen the light of day if not for Granz. Re John Hammond and Vanguard - some of the early Vanguards, particularly the first Jimmy Rushing have very poor sound quality and a friend who worked with Jon Hammond said that the latter's contribution to any record session he 'produced' was to sit in the booth reading the racing pages. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Gould Posted June 30, 2008 Report Share Posted June 30, 2008 There were occasional sets that were disappointing like 'Ben Webster and Associates' but the Hawk/Ben, Roy/Tatum, Diz Afro Suite, Hodges Side by Side and Back to Back to name just a few, are musical treasures that would never have seen the light of day if not for Granz. 'Webster & Associates' disappointing? That's not a commonly held opinion around here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bruce talbot Posted June 30, 2008 Report Share Posted June 30, 2008 There were occasional sets that were disappointing like 'Ben Webster and Associates' but the Hawk/Ben, Roy/Tatum, Diz Afro Suite, Hodges Side by Side and Back to Back to name just a few, are musical treasures that would never have seen the light of day if not for Granz. 'Webster & Associates' disappointing? That's not a commonly held opinion around here. I was disappointed when I first heard it and I've always felt that everyone on this date can be heard to better advantage elsewhere. The guys seem bored with the material, which is hardly challenging, and the rhythm section is fairly lifeless (at least as far as these players are concerned). Maybe it was a case of just one too many 'blowing sessions' with little or no preparation, that relied on the chemistry of the participants - which turned out to be absent this time. This one seems uninspired, compared to sessions recorded over those years. Compare Ben & Roy on 'Side by Side' Lord lists most of the issued tracks as being take 3 - sounds like it might have been a long night. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Nessa Posted June 30, 2008 Report Share Posted June 30, 2008 I agree with Bruce - the cast is stellar but the result is less than the sum of the parts. Nice, that's all is my opinion after XX years with it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teasing the Korean Posted July 1, 2008 Report Share Posted July 1, 2008 On a slightly different topic, a significant number of Verve/Clef/Norgran sessions from the 50s are remastered from "disc sources." What's the story here? Were they recording directly to disc later than most labels, or were master tapes lost or destroyed? Anyone know the answer to this question? It has puzzled me for some time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Nessa Posted July 1, 2008 Report Share Posted July 1, 2008 On a slightly different topic, a significant number of Verve/Clef/Norgran sessions from the 50s are remastered from "disc sources." What's the story here? Were they recording directly to disc later than most labels, or were master tapes lost or destroyed? Anyone know the answer to this question? It has puzzled me for some time. which dates are you talking about? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
medjuck Posted July 1, 2008 Report Share Posted July 1, 2008 How in the world did Frank Zappa ever end up on Verve?? Or the Velvet Underground?? I don't know any of the history of Verve's non-jazz endeavors; can someone elucidate? Not to mention Tim Hardin. All that was after Granz but was it during the Creed Taylor period? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
medjuck Posted July 1, 2008 Report Share Posted July 1, 2008 How in the world did Frank Zappa ever end up on Verve?? Or the Velvet Underground?? I don't know any of the history of Verve's non-jazz endeavors; can someone elucidate? Not to mention Tim Hardin. All that was after Granz but was it during the Creed Taylor period? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Nessa Posted July 1, 2008 Report Share Posted July 1, 2008 How in the world did Frank Zappa ever end up on Verve?? Or the Velvet Underground?? I don't know any of the history of Verve's non-jazz endeavors; can someone elucidate? Not to mention Tim Hardin. All that was after Granz but was it during the Creed Taylor period? With a corporation like MGM, Creed was not the only guy with input. A bunch of cooks muddling the broth. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teasing the Korean Posted July 1, 2008 Report Share Posted July 1, 2008 which dates are you talking about? Mostly early 50s dates. Were they still recording on disc at this point? When did they go to tape? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Nessa Posted July 1, 2008 Report Share Posted July 1, 2008 which dates are you talking about? Mostly early 50s dates. Were they still recording on disc at this point? When did they go to tape? I was asking for sessions. In the earliest '50s both systems were used and the "direct to disc" recordings were usually superior. Sessions please. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teasing the Korean Posted July 1, 2008 Report Share Posted July 1, 2008 Not sure I can give you specific dates until I dig out LPs and/or CDs, but offhand Bird, Diz, Bud, and Chico O'Farrill come to mind. I had a Bud Powell Verve 2fer from the 70s (Genius of Bud Powell) with surface noise on a couple of tracks (within the transfers). Years later, I found a second pressing of this album where this had been corrected. I've found varying quality between CD issues and LP issues also. I wonder if tapes had ever been mislabeled or misplaced and found later. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Nessa Posted July 1, 2008 Report Share Posted July 1, 2008 I await your list. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teasing the Korean Posted July 1, 2008 Report Share Posted July 1, 2008 Being that they ran both tape and disc, its likely that discs were used on some of these issues. The Chico O'Farrill "Cuban Blues" collection states so, but it does not say one which tunes, nor if tapes were made at the time that were lost/damaged/destroyed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
medjuck Posted July 1, 2008 Report Share Posted July 1, 2008 I run into Bones Howe now and then. I'll ask him about it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Magnificent Goldberg Posted July 1, 2008 Author Report Share Posted July 1, 2008 How in the world did Frank Zappa ever end up on Verve?? Or the Velvet Underground?? I don't know any of the history of Verve's non-jazz endeavors; can someone elucidate? Not to mention Tim Hardin. All that was after Granz but was it during the Creed Taylor period? With a corporation like MGM, Creed was not the only guy with input. A bunch of cooks muddling the broth. I can't be certain because I don't have too many Verves from that precise period, but I think Creed Taylor was out of there by then. Curtis Amy's "Mustang" was produced by Joel Dorn & Jack Shaw in January 1967, not Creed Taylor. The last Creed Taylor-produced Verve I know of was the JOS/Wes "Further adventures" recorded Sep 1966. Wes' "A day in the life" was recorded in June 1967 on A&M. The Mothers first Verve LP came out in May 1967 (dunno when it was recorded). MG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clunky Posted July 1, 2008 Report Share Posted July 1, 2008 Chuck is right, Verve (and the Granz labels that preceded it) were essentially an extension of a touring concert group, JATP. The early studio recordings were pretty awful, technically--Norman did not seem too interested in the sound quality until reviewers began slamming his recordings (John Hammond and John S. Wilson were pretty harsh in the NYT). Hammond, of course used Vanguard to demonstrate how jazz audio could be made as palatable as, say, a little Mozart piece. The early Basie Verve sides are a case in point. The audio quality of the original (albeit UK issue) LPs I have of this material sound very poor against the excellent sound in the Mosaic set. A good example of CD superiority over LP !!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted July 1, 2008 Report Share Posted July 1, 2008 Blues Project, Laura Nero, The Hombres, Janis Ian... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Beat Steve Posted July 1, 2008 Report Share Posted July 1, 2008 Blues Project, Laura Nero, The Hombres, Janis Ian... I suppose you are talking about Laura NYRO, right? Those Neroes who were around at roughly that time (Peter etc.) were somebody else... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted July 1, 2008 Report Share Posted July 1, 2008 ooops.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Magnificent Goldberg Posted July 1, 2008 Author Report Share Posted July 1, 2008 Blues Project, Laura Nero, The Hombres, Janis Ian... They were on Verve-Forecast (as was John Lee Hooker), which was intended as a Folk music label (and probably wasn't managed by Creed Taylor), though the "folk" credentials of a good a good few of those artists don't seem nearly as convincing now as they probably did then. The Mothers were on Verve. I've remembered that my cousin had a 45 of a recording of "Imagination" on UK Verve, by some group whose name I don't think I even tried to remember, which was in imitation of the Marcels (does anyone remember the Marcels' "Blue moon"?) and was 1961 or 1962. Now THAT was in the Creed Taylor days. I can't understand why it came out on Verve when MGM had a perfectly serviceable, though bland, R&B label, Cub, at the time; but there we are. MG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Beat Steve Posted July 1, 2008 Report Share Posted July 1, 2008 The Mothers were on Verve. Weren't they on their own (?) label BIZARRE that was distributed through Verve? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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