Blogspots...

[JSngry]

Hey, I paid real money for that Harold Vick disco LP a few years ago but downloaded it from the blog any way, just because it's easier for me to get a CD that way. And that's not the first time I've done something like this downloaded digitally after having bought a legit analog copy.

[Soul Stream]

why dont you just not be retarded and not post it the links. jim doesn't want to deal with the shit. anyone who wants to know already knows. just don't discuss it. this has come up many times before. don't link to these blogs. you are hurting more than you are helping. everyone is exposed when you post the link, jim and the site in question.

Why don't you fuck off.

[Dan Gould]

Mike,

Deleting the thread is completely unnecessary. Jim removed the links to the site. Discussing the impacts of sites like this guy doesn't do anything but bring important questions out in the open.

As for your question, I bookmarked the site the last (first) time that it got mentioned here. I've never been moved to download anything and really only check the site a couple of times a week to see if he needs my help in deleting non-OOP material.

[Chuck Nessa]

Here is one scenario (of hundreds possible “industry wide”) which will never happen again:

...

This sort of thing is impossible now.

How much is impossible because of sharity blogs and how much is impossible due to changes in the biz separate from the effects of these blogs?

I've killed a couple of projects because of the blogs. Most of the other problems in the biz were started by free downloading of pop stuff, but this ultimately destroyed the business structure we all lived in. The blogs are the final nails in the coffin for the small guys.

[Dan Gould]

Here is one scenario (of hundreds possible “industry wide”) which will never happen again:

...

This sort of thing is impossible now.

How much is impossible because of sharity blogs and how much is impossible due to changes in the biz separate from the effects of these blogs?

I've killed a couple of projects because of the blogs. Most of the other problems in the biz were started by free downloading of pop stuff, but this ultimately destroyed the business structure we all lived in. The blogs are the final nails in the coffin for the small guys.

Would you consider the Savant/HighNote guys one of the "small" guys? Because I see that they are regularly releasing new material. Same with Criss Cross. I have the feeling that Sharp Nine has been hurting but it seems as though the final nails haven't hit everyone. Or it could be that I am unaware of separate factors that help those others guys keep going ...

[Chuck Nessa]

Would you consider the Savant/HighNote guys one of the "small" guys? Because I see that they are regularly releasing new material. Same with Criss Cross. I have the feeling that Sharp Nine has been hurting but it seems as though the final nails haven't hit everyone. Or it could be that I am unaware of separate factors that help those others guys keep going ...

Other factors involved with Criss Cross and Savant/HighNote. Things I'm not comfortable discussing. Hope you understand.

[Dan Gould]

Would you consider the Savant/HighNote guys one of the "small" guys? Because I see that they are regularly releasing new material. Same with Criss Cross. I have the feeling that Sharp Nine has been hurting but it seems as though the final nails haven't hit everyone. Or it could be that I am unaware of separate factors that help those others guys keep going ...

Other factors involved with Criss Cross and Savant/HighNote. Things I'm not comfortable discussing. Hope you understand.

Gotcha.

[marcello]

Other factors involved with Criss Cross and Savant/HighNote. Things I'm not comfortable discussing. Hope you understand.

You know Chuck, I wonder who is being compensated for this one by Joe Fields:

I actually have a tape of this that I recorded off the radio back in the day. It was broadcst on WBFO.

"was taped in mid-winter 1976 during a long-running gig in snow-covered Buffalo, New York."

[JSngry]

Anybody got an educated guesses on how many people:

1) Download stuff they would never spend money on, just because they can

2) Download more now due to economic concerns outside the scope of the music business (i.e. - the economy's in the shitter now and has been for years, but worse now than ever, and the disposable income ain't there no more)

3) Are in fact actual freeloaders

and

4) How different these #s are now than in analog days. In other words, how different -in quality and quantity - are the 1s & 2s from the people who back int he day used to borrow shit and tape it?

Seems to me that real "source" of all of this is the industry introducing a format that could pretty much be replicated exactly (and if they say that they didn't foresee that, then they are either liars or the biggest damn fools imaginable), not having the foresight to protect against that, and just going on and getting the big bucks up front for the consumer w/o any long-term consideration. Like everything else that's falling apart in America - the lust for short term profit trumped long range planning.

Edited July 28, 2008 by JSngry

[JSngry]

Other factors involved with Criss Cross and Savant/HighNote. Things I'm not comfortable discussing. Hope you understand.

You know Chuck, I wonder who is being compensated for this one by Joe Fields:

I actually have a tape of this that I recorded off the radio back in the day. It was broadcst on WBFO.

"was taped in mid-winter 1976 during a long-running gig in snow-covered Buffalo, New York."

For that matter, didn't Don Schlittten release some tapes on Onyx of questionable origin/compensation?

[marcello]

In the near future all past recorded media will be available for download ( in Hi Res.), the the owners and copyright holders will be paid. They will use a format like the one Media Guide uses ( and Media Guide is owned by ASCAP) to digitally monitor downloads/plays, to determine compensation.

Two questions -

1) Is this just wishful thinking, or is something fixing to happen for real?

2) Does "all" really mean all?

Jim, it's real.

And yes, someday all.

They are archiving now.

[Shawn]

Seems to me that real "source" of all of this is the industry introducing a format that could pretty much be replicated exactly (and if they say that they didn't foresee that, then they are either liars or the biggest damn fools imaginable), not having the foresight to protect against that, and just going on and getting the big bucks up front for the consumer w/o any long-term consideration. Like everything else that's falling apart in America - the lust for short term profit trumped long range planning.

The music "industry" has been proving themselves more and more clueless over this issue since it began. It's been a good 8 years or more since the "Napster heyday" and what has changed? Not a damn thing. They've tried everything imaginable from lawsuits, to copy-protected discs that backfired on them, to new physical formats that nobody wanted to invest in, etc. Anything except embrace the new century and figure out a way to work WITH the internet instead of against it.

Even the "legal" sites are strangled to death by the majors...iTunes is still really the only completely successful model out there...and you know what, they don't make shit off the songs they sell, the profit margin is minimal. The only reason iTunes exists is to sell the iPod, all the money is made on the hardware. The subscription service sites have mostly all vanished (almost all bought out by Rhapsody)...I should know since I lost a job because of one of those sites shutting down. The labels are so greedy and have so many irrational demands that there just isn't any money to be made on the subscription angle...and damn little to be made from the ala carte purchasing unless you have a "gadget" that everyone wants to own.

But then we're still left with all the stuff that the major labels have never gotten around to releasing in ANY format since the LP. That's where these blogs come in...

...but let us not also forget our good friends at Wal-Mart and the other major chain music stores that drove all the independent record stores out of business. You know, the kind of music stores that would stock things from small labels like Chuck's. Blogs can't be 100% to blame for the current state of the industry...

[Shawn]

In the near future all past recorded media will be available for download ( in Hi Res.), the the owners and copyright holders will be paid. They will use a format like the one Media Guide uses ( and Media Guide is owned by ASCAP) to digitally monitor downloads/plays, to determine compensation.

Two questions -

1) Is this just wishful thinking, or is something fixing to happen for real?

2) Does "all" really mean all?

Jim, it's real.

And yes, someday all.

They are archiving now.

Who is they?

What format are they archiving in? Does "hi-res" mean 24 bit?

How are they planning to handle artwork & liner notes?

[marcello]

Shawn - Every major media company ( print, film and music) have been buying up small companies, consolidating product and digitizing libraries. A case in point is Concord ,who is not even a major (another larger fish will buy them for their library). Why go through the expense of stocking, manufacturing, shipping and serviceing a physical piece that sells only a few copies when they can make you settle for a download now and the future is in hi-res with added content? And later, if you want a copy from the manufacturer, you can order ala carte.

Soon, the delivery of content will be via optical lines not wire, and that will enable hage amounts of data to stream anywhere. This means that you will get content in terrabytes! Hell, not onl;y will you get the music and tthe liner notes, but a hologram of the musican playing (like Trane in that Tom Cruise move)!

I'm also a home bulider and Verison (for one) offers me a "commission" for every house that uses their optical lines if I let them install them in my subdivisions. They want to get the infrastructure to as many customers as possible, as soon as possible.

[Niko]

Shawn - Every major media company ( print, film and music) have been buying up small companies, consolidating product and digitizing libraries. A case in point is Concord ,who is not even a major (another larger fish will buy them for their library). Why go through the expense of stocking, manufacturing, shipping and serviceing a physical piece that sells only a few copies when they can make you settle for a download now and the future is in hi-res with added content? And later, if you want a copy from the manufacturer, you can order ala carte.

slightly off topic, anyone out there who really believes, that, say, almost the complete riverside output will ever be sold as downloads... (say, who believes that at some point in the next 30 years both the paul serrano and the lenny mcbrowne album on riverside will be made available for download by the owners?) i definitely can't see them getting this stuff out of iron mountain and up for download at this point...

[Shawn]

Shawn - Every major media company ( print, film and music) have been buying up small companies, consolidating product and digitizing libraries. A case in point is Concord ,who is not even a major (another larger fish will buy them for their library). Why go through the expense of stocking, manufacturing, shipping and serviceing a physical piece that sells only a few copies when they can make you settle for a download now and the future is in hi-res with added content? And later, if you want a copy from the manufacturer, you can order ala carte.

slightly off topic, anyone out there who really believes, that, say, almost the complete riverside output will ever be sold as downloads... (say, who believes that at some point in the next 30 years both the paul serrano and the lenny mcbrowne album on riverside will be made available for download by the owners?) i definitely can't see them getting this stuff out of iron mountain and up for download at this point...

I was under the impression that they archived everything prior to sending it there.

On another note, I worked at a company that used Iron Mountain and all you have to do is put in a request for the items you need and they'll deliver them the following business day.

[JSngry]

Shawn - Every major media company ( print, film and music) have been buying up small companies, consolidating product and digitizing libraries.

So, what happens to the small local/regional/indie labels that the majors don't buy up? The ones that documented so much regional R&B & jazz? If no major company buys them up, then what becomes of them? What about all the European & Japanese labels?

What I'm trying to figure out is if "all" meaning all is a corporate all or a reality-based all.

[Jim Alfredson]

Here is one scenario (of hundreds possible "industry wide") which will never happen again:

...

This sort of thing is impossible now.

Yes, it is. As CD sales slump lower and lower, we are forced to find other ways. Fortunately, the same technology that is robbing us of CD sales also allows us to have our own recording studio with results that rival or sometimes surpass the recordings of the past.

The new organissimo CD was recorded in my basement. I don't even really have a great room (which is more important than all the technology in the world for this kind of music) and I think the recording sounds excellent. By tracking the album myself, I cut our production costs in half. That's pretty significant.

Of course, the downside is that I'll probably never have the chance to record at RVG's.

[1009]

I just wanted to throw my own anecdote in here (for whatever a single listener's history/experience is worth):

I only got into "out" jazz & free improv (such as much of the stuff on Chuck's label) in mid-2005 (I think). (I'm 29 at the moment, so I wasn't around for the first wave, & no one in my family nor any of my friends particularly enjoys "this" music, so I had to make all of my discoveries on my own.) Saw a Wilco show just after they added Nels Cline & decided I needed to figure out where this guy was coming from. Started buying up a whole lot of NC albums + albums on which he appeared.

As time went on I stumbled onto some blogs that posted vinyl rips of OOP stuff. Downloaded it & was blown away. I continue to visit these sites. HOWEVER, in the past two or three years I have spent what must be thousands on cds (& some vinyl, despite not owning a turntable) I would never, ever have considered purchasing without getting to know the musicians via the blogs first. In many cases I have purchased cd reissues after downloading an album from a vinyl rip. The album becomes important to me, & as soon as I can pick up a legit hifi recording of it (& can afford said recording), I do. Since getting into some of these blogs & participating in the conversations they generate, the amount of money I spend on music has increased exponentially. There is simply NO WAY I would have gone around dropping $30 at Dusty Groove on a Yosuke Yamashita import if I hadn't gotten wind of him through blogs first.

Again, I have no idea how representative my experience has been. Just putting it out there as one example.

And when Chuck reissues Nonaah (this fall?) I will be among the first in line to pick up a legit copy. (Have to say that I never did get an mp3 rip of that particular one, but even if I had I would still be picking up the remastered cd version.)

[Shawn]

I just wanted to throw my own anecdote in here (for whatever a single listener's history/experience is worth):

I only got into "out" jazz & free improv (such as much of the stuff on Chuck's label) in mid-2005 (I think). (I'm 29 at the moment, so I wasn't around for the first wave, & no one in my family nor any of my friends particularly enjoys "this" music, so I had to make all of my discoveries on my own.) Saw a Wilco show just after they added Nels Cline & decided I needed to figure out where this guy was coming from. Started buying up a whole lot of NC albums + albums on which he appeared.

As time went on I stumbled onto some blogs that posted vinyl rips of OOP stuff. Downloaded it & was blown away. I continue to visit these sites. HOWEVER, in the past two or three years I have spent what must be thousands on cds (& some vinyl, despite not owning a turntable) I would never, ever have considered purchasing without getting to know the musicians via the blogs first. In many cases I have purchased cd reissues after downloading an album from a vinyl rip. The album becomes important to me, & as soon as I can pick up a legit hifi recording of it (& can afford said recording), I do. Since getting into some of these blogs & participating in the conversations they generate, the amount of money I spend on music has increased exponentially. There is simply NO WAY I would have gone around dropping $30 at Dusty Groove on a Yosuke Yamashita import if I hadn't gotten wind of him through blogs first.

Again, I have no idea how representative my experience has been. Just putting it out there as one example.

And when Chuck reissues Nonaah (this fall?) I will be among the first in line to pick up a legit copy. (Have to say that I never did get an mp3 rip of that particular one, but even if I had I would still be picking up the remastered cd version.)

Thanks for sharing. I have a feeling there are quite a few people like yourself out there who are discovering the music the best way you can...and then going the legit route and purchasing it when it becomes available.

Blogs = free advertisement & marketing - at least that's what they COULD be if developed correctly.

[Aggie87]

Thanks for sharing. I have a feeling there are quite a few people like yourself out there who are discovering the music the best way you can...and then going the legit route and purchasing it when it becomes available.

That may or may not be true - how would you ever prove that more people do this than just simply download and never purchase anything legitimately?

It's anecdotal, and my suspicion is it's not the norm at all.

[RDK]

Shawn - Every major media company ( print, film and music) have been buying up small companies, consolidating product and digitizing libraries. A case in point is Concord ,who is not even a major (another larger fish will buy them for their library). Why go through the expense of stocking, manufacturing, shipping and serviceing a physical piece that sells only a few copies when they can make you settle for a download now and the future is in hi-res with added content? And later, if you want a copy from the manufacturer, you can order ala carte.

slightly off topic, anyone out there who really believes, that, say, almost the complete riverside output will ever be sold as downloads... (say, who believes that at some point in the next 30 years both the paul serrano and the lenny mcbrowne album on riverside will be made available for download by the owners?) i definitely can't see them getting this stuff out of iron mountain and up for download at this point...

Well, much of the Riverside (OJC) material that has been issued is now available as digital downloads on emusic at least. As for the "all" that Marcello suggests, I don't think it will be that easy or that all-encompasing. It might be, yes, if no legal royalties need to be paid, but is Concord (or whomever) really gonna go through the expense of digitizing an otherwise LP-only session by one of their more obscure artists just so that it might sell a few hundred (let alone a few dozen) to those who really want it? It costs money just to set up the system of paying out even minimal royalties or covering old production expenses that might still be on the books. Then there's the case of the genuinely crappy albums that no one really wants except as curiosities (I'm thinking of a lot of 70's-era disco-jazz releases that are fairly embarrassing now but nevertheless cultural artifacts and/or signposts in an artist's development). Jim mentioned above the fact that some albums are only worth "free" - and these are the ones that would otherwise be lost if not for the gray-area bloggers.

[Shawn]

Thanks for sharing. I have a feeling there are quite a few people like yourself out there who are discovering the music the best way you can...and then going the legit route and purchasing it when it becomes available.

That may or may not be true - how would you ever prove that more people do this than just simply download and never purchase anything legitimately?

It's anecdotal, and my suspicion is it's not the norm at all.

That's why I didn't venture a guess at the amount but stated "quite a few" which in my mind would be slightly more than a "tad".

[RDK]

Just getting caught up on this thread, but for the record I don't think I've ever agreed more with Jim S. than I have with his comments in this thread. The issue is, indeed, one big heaping pile of gray, with plusses and minuses to both sides and even the unfortunate "collatoral damage."

[king ubu]

Well, people might know of my own blogging activities (or not), I know some don't like that at all, but I usually share but so-called R.O.I.O.'s (and not, I'm not opposed to European copyright laws, either - I know some don't like that at all...).

Anyway, I have spent almost my whole earnings (whatever I didn't need for rent, food, the occasional holiday etc) to buy jazz CDs, I am 29 as well, and I have likely around 4000 CDs by now, without owning much else, so in most people's eyes I own nothing of any value... anyway, I continue to check out blogs to find rare OOP material, I continue to explore live shows as I share them myself and as I get them from dime, and I am definitely buying more because of that, not less (I mean I would buy much more if I could, but I'm constantly broke as it is now, so...).

I guess most of the people who post here are suspicious of that but I hope you take my word that I'm not bullshitting here. It's not all good, it's not all bad, it's not quite that simple, most of the time...