Blogspots...

[JSngry]

Yeah, there's a big difference between feeling entitled to something and taking advantage of an opportunity you come across.

I mean, ok, I surfing the net and all of a sudden there's this enticing OOP LP on a blog that I've never even heard of, or have only heard of. LOOKS good, it's got some good people on it and everything about it says HEY! So I do a little more research and find out that no, it's never been reissued anywhere, and yes, this is just about the only place in the world to hear it short of shelling out uber-bucks to some seller on GEMM who I've never heard of for a VG- copy. So hell yeah - I click to download.

Is that a sale lost? Hell no. No way I was going to buy that $50.00 VG- copy from an unknown seller on GEMM even if I knew the album. You want it, you can have it. Me, I got a budget and some common sense.

Do I feel "entitled" to a lifetime of such finds? Hell no. I feel lucky. And if I see something where the link's been pulled, hey, I totally understand.

Do I talk up the artist and the album if it turns out to be as good (or better) than hoped for? Hell yeah.

And here's the deal - would I buy the downloaded material in "legit" form if/when it became available? That's a simple one - if the music was good enough and if it was packaged sensibly, hell, yeah. If the music was just so-so (and let's face it, a lot of these crate-digger/blog offerings are not A+ stuff, they're often "interesting" at best, sometimes there's at least part of a good reason why they've vanished over time) and the reissue had a $16.99 sticker price for the original 0:33:42 album with nothing added as far as liner essays or anything, probably not. But I don't know that I'd have bought it anyway if I hadn't downloaded it. These days, I put my "taking a chance" money more into newer musics, just because. So $16.99 for a guaranteed ok-at-best 27 minute Billy Larkin side...just not gonna happen, ever. Download or not.

[Chuck Nessa]

Monk paid Bob Weinstock 128 dollars (that he borrowed from Orrin Keepnews) to get out of his Prestige contract and go to Riverside. Monk OWED them money, what a joke.

When Monk was finally released by BN 'cause they could not sell his records, Prestige signed him and paid advances on the sessions. These sessions didn't sell well and (on the books) Monk's advance was greater than the royalties from Prestige. Nothing "wrong" here - it happens all the time. I don't think my advance to Roscoe Mitchell for "L-R-G" can ever be paid off. Not sending a collection agency after my friend, but I am not yet paying royalties on that project.

Grow up and smell reality.

[Chuck Nessa]

Thinking about changing my name to "Collateral Damage". Actually I think I'll ask Ann to put that on the tombstone.

[JSngry]

Thinking about changing my name to "Collateral Damage". Actually I think I'll ask Ann to put that on the tombstone.

I'm trying to laugh to keep from crying. Really.

[paul secor]

Yeah, there's a big difference between feeling entitled to something and taking advantage of an opportunity you come across.

I hear what you're saying. Can't say that I agree, but I hear you. I do think that many people today feel that the internet is a wide open opportunity to feed their entitlement.

But hey - most people are going to do whatever they can get away with. I try not to be cynical, but....

[Chuck Nessa]

Not your life, not your ambition, not your desire, not your problem.

Just me and the fucking blogs.

[JSngry]

Yeah, there's a big difference between feeling entitled to something and taking advantage of an opportunity you come across.

I hear what you're saying. Can't say that I agree, but I hear you. I do think that many people today feel that the internet is a wide open opportunity to feed their entitlement.

But hey - most people are going to do whatever they can get away with. I try not to be cynical, but....

What's been proven is that the internet is one helluva effective method of distribution, and that "digital" is a lot "slimmer profile" product to deliver than "analog".

For better and for worse.

"Collateral damage", be it my problem or not, seems a more than fitting description.

[paul secor]

Not your life, not your ambition, not your desire, not your problem.

Just me and the fucking blogs.

Your reply wasn't intended for me, but I feel that all of this has an effect on many of us. If you had forseen what was going to happen - illegal downloading, the European 50 year limit, etc. - you might have reconsidered creating Nessa Records (tho I have a feeling you might have been stubborn enough to do it anyway). If Nessa Records had never existed, my life, for one, would be greatly lessened.

[Uncle Skid]

From the blog in question:

"I just love jazz"

"exploring my favorite records of the past is a thing I want to share with you"

"Keep your comments coming in order to let me know that my work is appreciated."

(emphasis added)

I have no doubt this is a well-intentioned person, a "true fan" of the music, whatever that means.

BUT: "my work"???

C'mon. Ripping an LP (even carefully, at high quality) and posting to a blog does not consititute "work".

Any dipshit with a sound card and an internet connection can do that.

So, what bothers me is this: it takes a certain amount of arrogance to unilaterally decide that taking ANY (yes, even OOP) record and posting it to the entire world is OK.

If this (or any other) blogger made ANY attempt to contact the artist, record label, copyright owner, etc., PRIOR to posting (and documented it), I might feel differently.

I see no evidence of this. I vaguely recall one blogger mentioning that he had contacted Anthony Braxton regarding some OOP material, but he/she is certainly in the vast minority.

[7/4]

BUT: "my work"???

I see no evidence of this. I vaguely recall one blogger mentioning that he had contacted Anthony Braxton regarding some OOP material, but he/she is certainly in the vast minority.

Braxton gave his OK to circulate the Arista albums 5-6 years ago when it seemed like there was no hope of release.

[Uncle Skid]

Braxton gave his OK to circulate the Arista albums 5-6 years ago when it seemed like there was no hope of release.

Do you know if he rescinded that OK when it was clear that the Mosaic was coming out? Just curious.

[Chuck Nessa]

Braxton gave his OK to circulate the Arista albums 5-6 years ago when it seemed like there was no hope of release.

When, where did this happen? Just curious.

[7/4]

Braxton gave his OK to circulate the Arista albums 5-6 years ago when it seemed like there was no hope of release.

Do you know if he rescinded that OK when it was clear that the Mosaic was coming out? Just curious.

I have no idea.

Braxton gave his OK to circulate the Arista albums 5-6 years ago when it seemed like there was no hope of release.

When, where did this happen? Just curious.

There's a Yahoo grp/email list. Someone asked him and he gave the OK. This was about 5-6 years ago.

[Chuck Nessa]

Braxton gave his OK to circulate the Arista albums 5-6 years ago when it seemed like there was no hope of release.

Do you know if he rescinded that OK when it was clear that the Mosaic was coming out? Just curious.

I have no idea.

Braxton gave his OK to circulate the Arista albums 5-6 years ago when it seemed like there was no hope of release.

When, where did this happen? Just curious.

There's a Yahoo grp/email list. Someone asked him and he gave the OK. This was about 5-6 years ago.

:lol:

[B. Clugston]

Braxton gave his OK to circulate the Arista albums 5-6 years ago when it seemed like there was no hope of release.

When, where did this happen? Just curious.

It was around 2005. He gave the OK to a member of the Braxton Yahoo group, which then seeded the Arista recordings. I seem to recall his blessing applied to all of his recordings. He'd rather people be listening to his music. A lot of the Braxton Yahoo group members then chipped in some money as a 60th birthday present for Braxton.

[7/4]

Braxton gave his OK to circulate the Arista albums 5-6 years ago when it seemed like there was no hope of release.

When, where did this happen? Just curious.

It was around 2005. He gave the OK to a member of the Braxton Yahoo group, which then seeded the Arista recordings. I seem to recall his blessing applied to all of his recordings. He'd rather people be listening to his music. A lot of the Braxton Yahoo group members then chipped in some money as a 60th birthday present for Braxton.

That sounds familiar. I'm old and my memory is going. Can't remember everything.

For example, I can't even remember what happened here yesterday.

Edited July 28, 2008 by 7/4

[Jim Alfredson]

From the blog in question:

"I just love jazz"

"exploring my favorite records of the past is a thing I want to share with you"

"Keep your comments coming in order to let me know that my work is appreciated."

(emphasis added)

I have no doubt this is a well-intentioned person, a "true fan" of the music, whatever that means.

BUT: "my work"???

C'mon. Ripping an LP (even carefully, at high quality) and posting to a blog does not consititute "work".

Yep. The other ironic part of his blog is that the guy probably spends more on his audio gear than he does on going to see concerts / gigs or buying CDs.

It's a funky situation. I'm curious if the new organissimo CD is out there yet. I would not be surprised, although we have not serviced DJs yet, so maybe not. Before we officially released the new Root Doctor CD, we serviced the DJs and the CD wound up on the torrent sites within days, which would be funny if we hadn't spent $12k on the record.

[mikeweil]

"Collateral damage", be it my problem or not, seems a more than fitting description.

Yes it is.

I stepped over that blog months ago while googling for some musician, and have mixed feelings - glad to finally be able to hear some music that I might never get to hear otherwise on one side, thinking about the royalty issue on the other.

I would be willing to pay for a download in lossless audio quality with artwork and liner, after hearing samples to make up my mind, and I think something like download on demand or CD on demand at reasonable prices would be the only solution for this issue. But like JSngry I wouldn't want to pay highprice fees for a so-so album.

I for one would download an album that's available, only to buy it at the next opportunity.

I think the whole media industry is about to change, and low price online retailers are just as much a part of it as bloggers or emusic. The old concept of having a piece of hard disc is about to vanish. I wouldn't mind, but only if I get proper documentation.

[mikeweil]

From the blog in question:

..... C'mon. Ripping an LP (even carefully, at high quality) and posting to a blog does not consititute "work".

Yep. The other ironic part of his blog is that the guy probably spends more on his audio gear than he does on going to see concerts / gigs or buying CDs.

It's a funky situation. I'm curious if the new organissimo CD is out there yet. I would not be surprised, although we have not serviced DJs yet, so maybe not. Before we officially released the new Root Doctor CD, we serviced the DJs and the CD wound up on the torrent sites within days, which would be funny if we hadn't spent $12k on the record.

The latter is the part that those rippers don't give a damn about. They only think as far as their own purse. I once got angry when I found out some dance workshop participant had a burn of a CD of a band I had been a member of, but they didn't get the point. I keep explaining that to people, to little effect ..... they do seem to take the music for granted, don't see the work and cost involved, just the fun it is to make music blablabla - makes one wish to pull out a gun and get the price of the CD of anyone I encounter with an illegal copy.

[Chuck Nessa]

Here is one scenario (of hundreds possible “industry wide”) which will never happen again:

Roscoe Mitchell calls to discuss the next recording project after Nonaah. He mentions he has ideas for a couple of compositions but they are not practical unless we can make recordings. The works are for specific performers and their instruments. The work to write the pieces is not practical if the results can’t be preserved in some way. He invites me to come to his home (in Wisconsin) the next weekend to discuss the project and show me his ideas. He plays examples of the ideas on saxophone, clarinet and piano so I get the concept of the pieces. We agree to make it happen and I agree to pay for it. After a few more weekends in Wisconsin we decide all is ready. Ultimately I rent the Creative Music Studio (between terms) for room, board and rehearsal space for the participants in the first composition. Roscoe, Braxton, Jarman, Threadgill, Barker, Favors, Moye and Ewart work on the Maze for a few days. We rent a Ryder truck and we haul all the instruments from Woodstock to Manhattan and Columbia’s 30th St studio for the recording. Braxton hauled some overflow in his van. After a successful session, Malachi Favors drives the Ryder back to Chicago (where I met him) for unloading. About 3 weeks later Roscoe, George Lewis, Leo Smith an I meet in Woodstock for rehearsals for the next piece – L-R-G and when finished we make our way to RVG’s studio to record the results. At the end of the session Leo and George head north and Roscoe and I load his instruments and the tapes into a rented car and head for Chicago. We had anticipated each piece being one side of an lp but this was obviously not the situation now – we had a record and an “extra” “half”. During the drive Roscoe wonders what we can do now. I recall his work on soprano alternate fingerings, overtones, etc observed while staying at his place, and suggest recording some examples of this work. He agrees, we have another recording session and we ultimately have a completed project.

This sort of thing is impossible now.

[Soul Stream]

There seems to be a lot of "theoretical" opposition to this blog. However, this site seemed pretty well-known by nearly everyone but myself before I started this thread. Just curious, a show of hands, of how many have downloaded off that blog? I get the feeling there's a lot of "yeah, downloading is bad" while they hit the download button on the computer. And Chuck, I'll count you out since I don't think you wanted the Harold Vick disco album anyway...

[Chuck Nessa]

SS, you miss the whole friggin' point.

[Chuck Nessa]

sorry but the point is, this is not math. why do people continue with these links? the hippies in the gdead thread discussed a good site and three or so days later, it was taken down. one or two people on here don't seem to be capable of using computers for remedial activities but everyone else, i think, knows these sites. so chill.

Sorry if you thought I was talking to you Helen.

[Soul Stream]

SS, you miss the whole friggin' point.

Maybe so... I'll give everyone fair warning. I'm going to delete this thread....and save Jim and crew the headache, hassle, ect. This wasn't my intent to begin with and now it's turned into the same old downloading argument. Let me just point out, I buy plenty of CDs and if I download...I pay for it on iTunes. This blog was ann exception to that, something I stumbled on and since it was on oop vinyl seemed like an o.k. thing to download in the big scheme of life and musicians getting shorted on money. I'm a musician, I accept downloading as something that's here to stay for better or worse. It certainly isn't helping me out.

Edited July 28, 2008 by Soul Stream

[Dan Gould]

Here is one scenario (of hundreds possible “industry wide”) which will never happen again:

...

This sort of thing is impossible now.

How much is impossible because of sharity blogs and how much is impossible due to changes in the biz separate from the effects of these blogs?