good riddance to record stores ?

[Guy Berger]

Not "good riddance" more like "shrug". I haven't bought music in a brick and mortar location for at least 5 years. I don't give it much thought.

Guy

[Chalupa]

and I read recently that the chap at Rays has been let go by Foyles. I'm not sure if that means the shop too.

I read that too. What a damn shame ! Paul Pace and his staff were pretty well running the last bastion of independent jazz retailing in London and doing a good job of it I thought, with the interesting CD selection, some good 2nd hand bins and nice coffee shop, indeed one of the most pleasant such emporiums in Central London. Even some vinyl. I've spent pleasurable hours in that particular 'Rays'. Hope it doesn't mean the demise of 'Rays' but the total cynic in me suspects that the jazz will go and the cafe bit will expand. If so, I won't be buying many more over-priced books from Foyles.

That's right - the bookshop business is being hit by Amazon etc on line sales, too. Even second hand shops are coming on as Amazon sellers, if they've got any sense. It's been a while since I visited Hay-on-Wye; perhaps I'll go there in the summer (if we have one next year).

MG

http://www.philly.com/philly/hp/news_updat...Book_Store.html

Robin’s Book Store, a favorite haunt of the Philadelphia’s literati, announced last week that this will be its last holiday season. It will be closing up shop at the end of January.

Early this afternoon there were a handful of customers at the store. The customers appeared suprised at the store's demise.

The city’s oldest independent book seller, Robin’s has long hosted poetry readings and autograph signings at 108 S. 13th Street.

“Operating a book store was always a better hobby than a way to make a living, but now it’s impossible” writes Larry Robin in a news release. “Blame it on the Economy. Blame it on the Chain Stores. Blame it on the Internet. Blame it on Reading Habits.”

Robin’s grandfather, David, opened the original Robin’s 73 years ago on N. 11th Street.

The store has a storied history as a hotbed of controversy.

In 1961, then-Assistant District Attorney Arlen Specter and his boss, District Attorney James Crumlish, sought an injunction against Robin's for selling Henry Miller's Tropic of Cancer, which was denounced at the time as pornography.

Every bookstore in Philadelphia pulled the novel from its shelves - except Robin's. "We sold 7,000 copies in one week," Robin told Inquirer reporter Alfred Lubrano on the store's 70th Anniversary.. "We were fighting for basic free speech. "

Eventually, the U.S. Supreme Court ruled that the book was not obscene. From then on, Robin's was known as a kind of forbidden-fruit stand, a place where you could find savory items others lacked, and where people stood up for art and language.

[porcy62]

I too have many happy memories of hours in record stores, going back to the early 60s. Even Australia had some excellent stores back then. Those were the days when BN and Impulse LPs were new - very exciting.

But, hardly noticing it really, I have just about completely stopped going into stores. My local Borders, for example, has obviously never had staff that know anything about jazz.

I think a lot of us simply have all that we want now, especially where classic era jazz goes.

I am not talking about the sixties, I am talking about five years ago. I used to work just in front of a big music store and a very good new and used vinyl and cd shop runned by friend was five minuts walk from my home, so after 8, or more often 10 or 12, hours of hard working I used to relax buying fresh bread at grocery store and spending half an hour looking for records or cd. Much better then waiting for parcels from Amazon IMHO.

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

I think a lot of us simply have all that we want now, especially where classic era jazz goes.

I'm not sure that's so, but perhaps it depends what you mean by "classic era jazz". I have only about a hundred albums by Swing era musicians and big bands and a couple of dozen by New Orleans bands. This is an area fertile for delightful exploration. I suspect many people on the board are in a similar position.

And, as you say, that's limiting consideration to jazz. There's lots of other exciting music out there - and I know you like House. Where do you go to get your insights into fresh stuff? Discos?

MG

[BillF]

I think a lot of us simply have all that we want now, especially where classic era jazz goes.

I'm not sure that's so, but perhaps it depends what you mean by "classic era jazz". I have only about a hundred albums by Swing era musicians and big bands and a couple of dozen by New Orleans bands. This is an area fertile for delightful exploration. I suspect many people on the board are in a similar position.

And, as you say, that's limiting consideration to jazz. There's lots of other exciting music out there - and I know you like House. Where do you go to get your insights into fresh stuff? Discos?

MG

For me, insights into fresh stuff comes from 1) jazz radio 2) board members' info 3) jazz blogs. Perhaps House fans have equivalents.

[JSngry]

Believe it or not, House is a helluva lot more underground than is jazz.

[Hot Ptah]

I still find a certain magic in going into a used book/music store and stumbling upon some 1960s Johnny Hodges vinyl in mint condition plus barely used copies of the books "The Maltese Falcon" and "The Big Sleep", as I did at Prospero's book store in Kansas City recently. I never would have thought of seeking any of these items out online, but when they were there in front of me, I snapped them up. And the store owners are friendly and knowledgable. This is an experience which I still enjoy.

[A Lark Ascending]

I think a lot of us simply have all that we want now, especially where classic era jazz goes.

I agree with MG - I don't think I'm anywhere close to being done with exploring. Even in what might initially seem like the small world of jazz there's still lots of leads unexplored. The 'That Devilin' Tune' discs demonstrate wondrous worlds I've hardly touched. Then there's the endless arrival of new music (which I appreciate is not to everyones taste). And then there's all that stuff beyond jazz.

I find those journeys much easier to set off on under the new web-based approaches than they were in the days when I bought from record stores. The breadth of my listening was greatly enhanced by web-based buying c. 2000. Downloading is only opening more possibilities.

It's hard to move away from a way of life that has given us so much pleasure. But anyone seriously interested in continuing to explore music beyond the immediately popular is going to be forced into the new model very quickly. But I'm sure most of us who lived for some time in the days of record shops will leave them behind with some sadness.

[Hot Ptah]

I think a lot of us simply have all that we want now, especially where classic era jazz goes.

I agree with MG - I don't think I'm anywhere close to being done with exploring. Even in what might initially seem like the small world of jazz there's still lots of leads unexplored. The 'That Devilin' Tune' discs demonstrate wondrous worlds I've hardly touched. Then there's the endless arrival of new music (which I appreciate is not to everyones taste). And then there's all that stuff beyond jazz.

I find those journeys much easier to set off on under the new web-based approaches than they were in the days when I bought from record stores. The breadth of my listening was greatly enhanced by web-based buying c. 2000. Downloading is only opening more possibilities.

It's hard to move away from a way of life that has given us so much pleasure. But anyone seriously interested in continuing to explore music beyond the immediately popular is going to be forced into the new model very quickly. But I'm sure most of us who lived for some time in the days of record shops will leave them behind with some sadness.

Why not use both stores and online sources?

[A Lark Ascending]

I think a lot of us simply have all that we want now, especially where classic era jazz goes.

I agree with MG - I don't think I'm anywhere close to being done with exploring. Even in what might initially seem like the small world of jazz there's still lots of leads unexplored. The 'That Devilin' Tune' discs demonstrate wondrous worlds I've hardly touched. Then there's the endless arrival of new music (which I appreciate is not to everyones taste). And then there's all that stuff beyond jazz.

I find those journeys much easier to set off on under the new web-based approaches than they were in the days when I bought from record stores. The breadth of my listening was greatly enhanced by web-based buying c. 2000. Downloading is only opening more possibilities.

It's hard to move away from a way of life that has given us so much pleasure. But anyone seriously interested in continuing to explore music beyond the immediately popular is going to be forced into the new model very quickly. But I'm sure most of us who lived for some time in the days of record shops will leave them behind with some sadness.

Why not use both stores and online sources?

Well, I did in the early 00's.

But in the UK the stores have all but disappeared. The main ones that up until a couple of years back carried some things of interest (HMV, Virgin [now Zavvi]) now focus purely on the big selling records. There are a handful of specialist shops - mainly classical - which I would use but the nearest is a two hour drive away. The only dedicated jazz shop I know outside London is a good five hours away in Bath (which also has two good classical shops). The nearest cities to me - Nottingham and Sheffield - no longer have shops that carry anything beyond the obvious in the jazz/folk/world/classical area. There are a few independents left but they are almost exclusively pop/rock based.

I don't think the UK ever had stores with the sort of jazz selection that I recall seeing in Paris, Brussels, Munich or Berlin....let alone New York! But in the 70s/80s even relatively small towns often had a record shop that had an interesting selection (dictated by what was in print in the UK). I recall buying a lot of jazz from Syd Booth's in Mansfield, a town that didn't even have a book shop! And in the late 80s/early 90s when the megastores stared opening as CDs took off they often started with substantial jazz sections (I recall a new HMV in Leicester that had endless wonders for a year or so). But that has all scaled right back.

I just see it as an age that has now passed. The irony is that there is more music available more readily than ever before in my life.

[ejp626]

Well, I did in the early 00's.

But in the UK the stores have all but disappeared.

Another cultural aspect that may be somewhat unique to the UK is that the charity shops seem to get a far larger chunk of used LPs/CDs than they do in the US. I eventually will donate CDs to my local charity shop, but only after they've been on-line for a while and then taken round to the used shops. This may be even more true for used books, and in many smaller cities in the UK, used book stores are being driven out of business by Oxfam and other similar shops.

[kh1958]

I too have many happy memories of hours in record stores, going back to the early 60s. Even Australia had some excellent stores back then. Those were the days when BN and Impulse LPs were new - very exciting.

But, hardly noticing it really, I have just about completely stopped going into stores. My local Borders, for example, has obviously never had staff that know anything about jazz.

I think a lot of us simply have all that we want now, especially where classic era jazz goes.

I am not talking about the sixties, I am talking about five years ago. I used to work just in front of a big music store and a very good new and used vinyl and cd shop runned by friend was five minuts walk from my home, so after 8, or more often 10 or 12, hours of hard working I used to relax buying fresh bread at grocery store and spending half an hour looking for records or cd. Much better then waiting for parcels from Amazon IMHO.

I agree with you on that--fortunately, there are still a few places to browse in Dallas--one good used CD store and the various outlets of Half Price Books, which are very hit and miss, but which are rewarding often enough to make frequent visits worthwhile.

Edited December 1, 2008 by kh1958

[Teasing the Korean]

...you just can't duplicate the feeling of bin diving on line. I always found much more interesting things by mistake in a store than I ever found on purpose on line...

That's the big difference. On-line is great for finding something you specifically want, but not necessarily for stumbling across things you never heard of.

[Dan Gould]

...you just can't duplicate the feeling of bin diving on line. I always found much more interesting things by mistake in a store than I ever found on purpose on line...

That's the big difference. On-line is great for finding something you specifically want, but not necessarily for stumbling across things you never heard of.

Searching major online shops, true. But Ebay does have a nice link called "Visit Sellers Store" which can often reveal things you've never heard of. I've also had luck in the past with one or two GEMM dealers, after I stumbled upon their listing in search of one item, I've found a number of other things I didn't know about by scrolling through their stock.

[ejp626]

...you just can't duplicate the feeling of bin diving on line. I always found much more interesting things by mistake in a store than I ever found on purpose on line...

That's the big difference. On-line is great for finding something you specifically want, but not necessarily for stumbling across things you never heard of.

Well, that's true enough, though I haven't had the time in ages to go through all the LPs/CDs at Reckless. I usually just have time to hit the "Just In" bins. And now, they allow you to browse those on-line! Similarly, I like checking out Dusty Groove every few days, since the home page has new things that may be of interest.

It is a different way of shopping, much more directed. With Amazon, you do at least get a cluster of related items or items that other purchasers of that CD have bought. That's not bad. But honestly, I find my interest in new music (not a new CD by an artist I already am well aware of) is only flagged when it is mentioned here or in a downbeat review.

[Daniel A]

...you just can't duplicate the feeling of bin diving on line. I always found much more interesting things by mistake in a store than I ever found on purpose on line...

That's the big difference. On-line is great for finding something you specifically want, but not necessarily for stumbling across things you never heard of.

Internet communities and forums will replace bin diving as a means to discover new and old things (and to a large extent it has changed already, look at all the blogs), but I agree it's not exactly the same.

[Hot Ptah]

I do a good deal of searching and buying online, but I will always enjoy going to small, independently owned book and/or music stores, usually with used stock. There's something about the experience that just really appeals to me. It did when I was 15 years old, and it still does. Even if I don't find anything, I just like to be in the stores.

I had a list of jazz albums I could never find at stores, some after years of searching, and within a few years of all-out searching online, had all of them. That took place from about 1999--2002. So I know the value of online shopping, to be sure.

[six string]

I feel pretty lucky having four used record stores in town plus R5 (raised from the ashes of Tower) is now carrying new vinyl, although less than the other stores.

I still buy most of my music at brick and mortar stores. Usually when I buy something on line, it's something difficult to find or not likely to be carried in town. If it's real hard to track down, you'll probably find it quicker on line than searching the bins in a record store. That's an advantage of on line, but it's a little disappointing when you find something on line and then you have to wait a week or so to get it delivered. Kind of kills the buzz of discovery.

I also enjoy the experience of talking to people at the store. I'm either on a first name basis or at least recognized when I go to the local stores. One of the local owners is also into microbrewed beers and we frequently have conversations of recently tasted ales, etc. and I sometimes bring in a bottle of something new to give to the owner. On Sunday evenings this guy will sometimes close the shop at the end of the day and open some interesting beers for his "select" customers to sample behind locked doors. You won't get that experience on line. I guess I do a bit of socializing during my hunter/gathering, not only with records but other things too. It will sound grumpy but I think people should interact with their fellow humans and not live in a bunker and eat soylent green. We have become so isolated in many ways.

[Big Beat Steve]

I don't think the UK ever had stores with the sort of jazz selection that I recall seeing in Paris, Brussels, Munich or Berlin....let alone New York! But in the 70s/80s even relatively small towns often had a record shop that had an interesting selection (dictated by what was in print in the UK). I recall buying a lot of jazz from Syd Booth's in Mansfield, a town that didn't even have a book shop! And in the late 80s/early 90s when the megastores stared opening as CDs took off they often started with substantial jazz sections (I recall a new HMV in Leicester that had endless wonders for a year or so). But that has all scaled right back.

Could it be that it's always elsewhere that one tends to think the grass is greener?

I for one would LOVE to be caught in a time warp and do the brick-and-mortar store (or Portobello Road market stall) shopping I COULD have done when in London during my school day stays there in 1975-76-77 (if I had had the money) and then again in the mid-90s (aside from the addresses mentioned in the current Mole Jazz thread all those small shops in Camden, etc. weren't that bad either for collectors at that time).

That said, I agree with what many said here about the experience of actually pulling out the unexpected disc from the bin and checking it out. Internet shopping needs a quite different approach and it is harder to come across the unexpected. And then on top of that the shippings costs you'll incur each time also add up quite heavily.

OTOH I also agree since I started eBaying and checking other online sources I managed to accumulate items to my collection within a 4-5 time frame that I had searched for to no avail at all for about 15 to 20 years before that! So there IS an advantage to the "new age" of shopping too.

Anyway, although the shelves taking up one entire wall in my music room to house my LP collection now really are getting close to overfilling I guess I'll have to hop on down a bit more often to that used record store remaining that constantly has bins of "Special Jazz LP Offers" going for 2.50 euros apiece! At that kind of money you CAN take chances .... ... and besides, the block where the shop is located is scheduled for redeveloping sometime in 2010!).

[A Lark Ascending]

It will sound grumpy but I think people should interact with their fellow humans and not live in a bunker and eat soylent green. We have become so isolated in many ways.

My experience in record shops of pretty limited interaction - everyone is burrowing away looking for their own choice of CDs, no different than people hunting down their provisions in a supermarket. Yes, I've known shops where I've got to know the owner and had a nice chat - but it's hardly the norm for most buyers.

You are also forgetting that by purchasing online rather han trawling the record stores we might be reducing isolation and increasing social interaction. The time liberated from hunting for records can be used reconnecting with family and friends. I don't spend a fraction of the time searching for CDs online than I used to spend on a trip to town on a purchasing hunt.

[A Lark Ascending]

Could it be that it's always elsewhere that one tends to think the grass is greener?

I for one would LOVE to be caught in a time warp and do the brick-and-mortar store (or Portobello Road market stall) shopping I COULD have done when in London during my school day stays there in 1975-76-77 (if I had had the money) and then again in the mid-90s (aside from the addresses mentioned in the current Mole Jazz thread all those small shops in Camden, etc. weren't that bad either for collectors at that time).

There was far more jazz released in mainland Europe than the UK in the 70s/80s. My LP copies of 'A Love Supreme' and 'Africa/Brass' plus several Miles discs from the mid-60s were imports. I remember going to the FNAC store in Brussels in the mid-80s and being stunned by the availability of records I'd only seen as sleeves in coffee table books. Bought the Miles Blackhawk 2 LP there (and 'The Shape of Jazz to Come' in Berlin - again, never seen (at that time, I'm sure it had a release in the early 60s) in the English provinces, though I imagine there were import copies in Mole, Rays and HMV Oxford Street from time to time). So maybe the sea of plenty owed more to a wider release policy - mainland Europe has always been more welcoming to jazz than the UK (ask the UK's musicians!!!!).

In 1997 I drove to Austria and South Germany. I recall the most amazing first floor CD shop in Munich, almost hidden from view. A huge floor of jazz and classical where I could easily have spent vast sums. Even more extraordinary were a couple of supermarkets...yes supermarkets...out of town in Vienna where I picked up newly released Kenny Garrett, Bill Frisell and Tomasz Stanko discs.

As for the riches you mention in London, well yes, there were some very good shops. But London is atypical of Britain as a whole. I'd only get up there once or twice a year at most. Out in the provinces things were much more sparse.

I have to stress that I'm talking with regard to shops selling new releases. I've never haunted second-hand record (or book) shops - being a history teacher I hate old, used things!!!!! I think there are still second hand record shops operating here - it's the ones selling new things that have all but vanished.

Edited December 1, 2008 by Bev Stapleton

[Hot Ptah]

It will sound grumpy but I think people should interact with their fellow humans and not live in a bunker and eat soylent green. We have become so isolated in many ways.

My experience in record shops of pretty limited interaction - everyone is burrowing away looking for their own choice of CDs, no different than people hunting down their provisions in a supermarket. Yes, I've known shops where I've got to know the owner and had a nice chat - but it's hardly the norm for most buyers.

You are also forgetting that by purchasing online rather han trawling the record stores we might be reducing isolation and increasing social interaction. The time liberated from hunting for records can be used reconnecting with family and friends. I don't spend a fraction of the time searching for CDs online than I used to spend on a trip to town on a purchasing hunt.

Also, I have become friends with some of the ebay sellers from whom I have purchased regularly for years. We have never met in person but we have exchanged personal emails and come to know each other pretty well. It is pleasant in its own way, just as getting to know people on this board is pleasant even if we never meet in person.

I have nearly always found that I did develop some type of personal relationship with the owners or employees of the used music stores which I frequent. They just saw me so often, buying stuff that was intriguing to them over time, that it naturally happened. I think that personal interactions at used music stores is much more likely than at new retail music stores.

Edited December 1, 2008 by Hot Ptah

[michel1969]

I remember, five years ago, in my beloved town of Nice, it was still possible to buy very fine records, (including top jazz rarities), in one of the three or four vinyl stores. I had good relationship with the owners, and was able to discover many interesting records. Also used to to trade ad sell some. All those record shop had resisted to the FNAC / VIRGIN invasion, because it was not the same market, obviously. But what made them eventually close was Ebay. For two reasons : one is that owners decided to sell the best stuff (if not the entire stuff) through internet ; other is that many non professionnal sellers willing to sell their records actually sell them directly through ebay, not to those shops. Everybody had good reasons to that, of course.

The "Marché aux Puces" de Clignancourt, in Paris, is still a good place to find interesting records, anyway. If if you shop every week, you will always find something for your taste. (If you accept to forget about any smile, or sympathy from a seller : we are in France )

[six string]

It will sound grumpy but I think people should interact with their fellow humans and not live in a bunker and eat soylent green. We have become so isolated in many ways.

My experience in record shops of pretty limited interaction - everyone is burrowing away looking for their own choice of CDs, no different than people hunting down their provisions in a supermarket. Yes, I've known shops where I've got to know the owner and had a nice chat - but it's hardly the norm for most buyers.

You are also forgetting that by purchasing online rather han trawling the record stores we might be reducing isolation and increasing social interaction. The time liberated from hunting for records can be used reconnecting with family and friends. I don't spend a fraction of the time searching for CDs online than I used to spend on a trip to town on a purchasing hunt.

Two good points.

[A Lark Ascending]

Also worth remembering that with each passing minute a few more people will arrive in the world who will only ever know downloads and a few more who recall the older way of doing things will depart. The 'good old days' of the record shop will have as much meaning as the days when everyone sat round the box watching two channels and therefore the nation had a shared experience at work the next day. In other words, in the minds of the new generation, the ramblings of the aging, sentimentally romanticising their past.

We all have our memories of the old way of doing things and understandably mourn the way an ever faster world is sweeping them away. But that will be an irrelevance to all but a handful of the generation growing up now (there will always be a few who are attracted by the older way of doing things).

What matters to me is being able to hear the music - be it the legacy of the past or new things currently appearing. If it isn't cursed with skips, jumps, flutter, wow, rice krispie noises, muffled sound etc then I'll take it in any way it comes. The record store are ceasing to provide that where I live - the online stores and, increasingly, the download stores and musician sites are. I'll retain my fond memories of going record hunting on a Saturday; but am happy to adapt to the more flexible new model.