vajerzy Posted October 17, 2003 Report Posted October 17, 2003 I don't think it's Grady Little's fault.....Martinez hasn't gone past the 7th all year- he begs out of more games when he could give his team a chance by going one or two more.......this time he wants to stay in and Little allowed it- he's their best pitcher and hoping he would rise to the occasion, take care of the inning. Do you actually want Alan Embree pitching instead of Martinez?? Not me....Embree is a 1 to 2 batter pitcher.....and it's not like the Yankees were hitting tracers off Martinez....that ball that took the funny hop to Millar, that broken bat flair that Posada hit.....that's baseball. To clarify- I intensely don't like the Yankees ("hate" is a bad word) and was rooting for the Sox all the way. I won't watch the World Series because the Yankees are in it again and I'm tired of seeing them. That said- I hope the Marlins sweep them and beat them bad to boot. Quote
Dan Gould Posted October 17, 2003 Report Posted October 17, 2003 You're completely wrong. If this were June or July when the bullpen was the Gas Can Gang, then yes, by all means, let Pedro pitch. 8th inning against Tampa Bay? Pedro all the way. But everyone in that bullpen was pitching to their absolute best level of the season. The bullpen ERA was barely over 1, for fucking God's sake! Every game we won went 8th inning, Timlin, 9th inning, Williamson, and absolutely no damage was done to either one of them except for the harmless solo homer Williamson gave up with a three run lead in game 4. And Embree is very tough on lefties (hell, who got Giambi out with the winning run at second?). It is inexcusable and unforgiveable to think that Pedro has earned any right to stay in the game. He's been babied the entire year, and now they keep him in? He was NOT the best pitcher on that team by the time the 8th inning came around. And yes, Posada's hit was a flare, but what about Matsui or Jeter? Those balls were clobbered, and they got clobbered in the seventh, too, except that they were hit at people. The writing was on the wall and there was never a goddamn reason in the world to leave Pedro in after the seventh. And absolutely never a goddamn reason in the world to leave him in after he got into any sort of trouble. GRADY LITTLE IS A FUCKING MORON WHO SHOULD RETURN TO THE OBSCURITY HE RICHLY DESERVES. Quote
JSngry Posted October 17, 2003 Report Posted October 17, 2003 Seems to me that the difference between near-success and the real deal is fluidity, the ability to toss theory out the window and do what needs to be done the second it needs to be done. In other words, respond to the moment in the moment, and don't let nobility interfere with reality. Grady Little had not learned this lesson as of last night. Hopefully he has now. He's fucked if he hasn't. FWIW, when Joe Torre was managing the Braves way back when, he did the same thing. Always left pitchers in too long becasue he "believed in them". It worked out occasionally, but more often than not it bit him in the butt. Joe Torre no longer has this problem. Instead, he has World Series rings. Carpe diem, baby. Quote
JSngry Posted October 17, 2003 Report Posted October 17, 2003 And btw, the TV coverage on Fox was sponsered by Tums, w/ads that directly mocked Prevacid OTC. The ESPN radio coverage was sponsored by Prevacid OTC, but there were also ads for Mylanta. I had to leave for work in the 8th, so I saw and heard both broadcasts. Never has sponsorship been so conflicted, but never has it been so appropriate. Quote
Noj Posted October 17, 2003 Report Posted October 17, 2003 In Pedro's defense, that sure was an ugly hit by Posada--talk about fighting one off! A lucky, ugly, flailing, fisted, nippler--but a 2 RBI killer nonetheless. Sometimes it is better to be lucky than good. I would have yanked Pedro right after Matsui's double--if not sooner. Dan is right. Damned Yankees. Quote
Matthew Posted October 17, 2003 Author Report Posted October 17, 2003 What Brad said. This is 100%, no fucking doubt about it, Grady Fucking Little's fault. Counting the number of times he should have taken Pedro out is like counting the number of times the Sox went to two strikes in Game Six of the '86 World Series. 1. Before the 8th inning started. 2. When he realized how many lefties were coming to the plate after Jeter. 3. After Williams' hit made it 5-3. 4. Etcetera, etcetera, AD FUCKING NAUSEUM. Grady Little should keep a tape of this game handy for the rest of his worthless life, so that when his children's children ask why he never managed in the major leagues again, he can cue up the 8th inning. The Yankees should vote Grady Little a full fucking World Series share. Yankee fans are cordially, respectfully and sincerely invited to EAT SHITANDDIE Dan summed things up very nicely, especially to the Yankee Nation. Quote
Matthew Posted October 17, 2003 Author Report Posted October 17, 2003 Little pulled 'a Dusty Baker' More like a Bobby Cox, who has to be one of the worst play-off managers in the history of the game. In the regular season, it's ok to give a pitcher the benefit of the doubt and leave him in but what are these guys thinking about leaving in Woods & Pedro? Well, it could be worse, they could've been down to one strike again. Quote
vajerzy Posted October 17, 2003 Report Posted October 17, 2003 That's the beauty of opinions because....they're opinions! Grady took a chance and believed in Pedro- sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't- oh well. Being a former pitcher in college, I've been in Pedro's situation many times. My manager comes to the mound and asks me how I feel- do I want to get this next batter? Most times I've answered truthfully- I can get him out, or no, I'm out of gas. I make a terrible pitch and the batter pops it up. Or I paint the low outside corner and the batter throws his bat at the ball and it just goes over the outstretched glove of the SS. I believe that Grady Little went with his ace and would sink or swim with him rather than someone out of the bullpen. Grady lost this time. Maybe he'll win next time. But that's baseball. And lets not overlook the job he did this year, compared to previous Red Sox teams and their final standings. I think the Red Sox did well and they should be proud of their season. They'll be back. Quote
ghost of miles Posted October 17, 2003 Report Posted October 17, 2003 What Brad said. This is 100%, no fucking doubt about it, Grady Fucking Little's fault. Counting the number of times he should have taken Pedro out is like counting the number of times the Sox went to two strikes in Game Six of the '86 World Series. 1. Before the 8th inning started. 2. When he realized how many lefties were coming to the plate after Jeter. 3. After Williams' hit made it 5-3. 4. Etcetera, etcetera, AD FUCKING NAUSEUM. Grady Little should keep a tape of this game handy for the rest of his worthless life, so that when his children's children ask why he never managed in the major leagues again, he can cue up the 8th inning. The Yankees should vote Grady Little a full fucking World Series share. Yankee fans are cordially, respectfully and sincerely invited to EAT SHITANDDIE Dan summed things up very nicely, especially to the Yankee Nation. I think I'll pass on Dan's, ah, "invitation." As a Yankee fan I was astonished (and grateful) when Little didn't pull Martinez in the 8th. I was listening on the radio, so I hadn't seen the contact that was being made, but from Joe Morgan & co.'s description it surely sounded as if Pedro had run out of gas. He was at 115 pitches! That said, going into extra innnings I still felt that the Red Sox had the advantage. Going into the bottom of the 10th, Rivera had now pitched two innings (yeah, I know Jeter said Rivera used to be a starter and could've gone longer than 3, but Torre didn't think so--wasn't Contreras warming up when Boone hit his homer?) and Boston had yet to use Wakefield or Williamsen. By the time the bottom of the 11th rolled around, Rivera was now either gone or pitching longer than he had since 1996--and, as I said yesterday, I don't think Torre trusted anybody else in the bullpen against Boston (hence his use of Mussina and Wells last night). This is going to be a big problem for NY against the Marlins; if their starters don't go 7, they get into trouble. And who are they going to start tomorrow night? Contreras? Ya got me... If I had to bet on the Series, I'd give slight odds to the Marlins. I know it won't have the romance of Boston-Chicago (or New York-Chicago, the Series that I--and no doubt Fox--was dreaming of), but game-wise I think it's going to be a great one. Much, much respect to the Red Sox. I'll spare you the rest of the sports-announcer cliches, but what other two teams could play 26 times in one year and go down to the wire like that? Talk about adding another incredible chapter to the lore of these two clubs... Memo to Grady Little and Dusty Baker: Gentlemen, regarding the overextended use of your aces in the late innings... get a f#%@ing clue! Recommended offseason reading: THE YEAR THE YANKEES LOST THE PENNANT, by Douglass Wallop. Published in 1954 and the basis for DAMN YANKEES, but more enjoyable than the musical, IMO. Great baseball novel. Quote
Big Al Posted October 17, 2003 Report Posted October 17, 2003 As a casual unbiased observer (I hate both the Yanks AND the Sox), I have to agree: Little deserves the Undisputed Chump of the Year Award for letting Pedro go as long as he did. Completely inexcusable. And forgive me for saying this, but I don’t buy this “believing in your best pitcher stuff.” Sangrey is absolutely right: do what you gotta do, when you gotta do it. His ass should be canned PRONTO! (So he can manage the Rangers, where he’ll fit in much nicer ) Him and Baker deserve their goat status right now. In fact, folks in Chicago oughta focus all their bile away from Bartman and right onto Baker for his folksy “aw, shucks” attitude after losing the biggest game of his career. Any REAL manager would’ve been breathing hellfire and brimstone if his guys had given away eight runs in one inning like that (of course, a REAL manager wouldn’t’ve left his pitchers in there for longer than they needed to be). Baker’s reaction to losing: “Well, these things just happen I guess.” GMAFB!!!!! The 11th inning homer by Boone was bittersweet: on the one hand, guys dream their whole lives for a moment like that; how cool then to have your brother watching from the broadcaster’s booth when that moment comes? On the other hand, I felt awful for Wakefield, and hope that no one holds that moment against him. If Little had used his brain in the 8th, there wouldn’t have been a need for it to come down to the wire like that. Quote
Man with the Golden Arm Posted October 17, 2003 Report Posted October 17, 2003 Yeah the beauty of opinions on sports, huh...someone yank the "pitcher" who's tellin' all us bat-girls how we should analyze this (just kiddin', really!). Too Little too Late! That's that!!! Just heard a little blurp of Garciapara explaining that the fans should be thankful and proud because no one out there realizes or quite understands the tremendous stress and pressure they are under every single day. Oh, I guess I forgot they're making multi-millions playing a kids' game. And here I though policing Iraqis and healing the sick was just a day at the park. Quote
BruceH Posted October 17, 2003 Report Posted October 17, 2003 Fuck the World Series. In fact, fuck baseball. Quote
ghost of miles Posted October 17, 2003 Report Posted October 17, 2003 Just mentioned this in a PM to Dan, but here's my own "curse" theory regarding the Yanks and why they will lose to the Marlins. Ever since being purchased by George Steinbrenner (who faced criminal charges for financial skulduggery related to Nixon contributions), they have been unable to win a World Series whenever a Republican president is in office: Year President World Series 1976 Ford ® Cin 4, NY 0 1977 Carter (D) NY 4, LA 2 1978 Carter (D) NY 4, LA 2 1981 Reagan ® LA 4, NY 2 1996 Clinton (D) NY 4, Atl 2 1998 Clinton (D) NY 4, SD 0 1999 Clinton (D) NY 4, Atl 0 2000 Clinton (D) NY 4, NYM 1 2001 Bush ® Ari 4, NY 3 2003 Bush ® ????? Doesn't look good for the Yanks! Quote
Dan Gould Posted October 17, 2003 Report Posted October 17, 2003 From your lips to God's ears, my man! Won't make this any easier to take, but at least it will mean we Yankee haters will have a Winter of Steinbrenner's Discontent to look forward to. Quote
catesta Posted October 17, 2003 Report Posted October 17, 2003 (edited) FYI - Jon Miller and Joe Morgan are doing the ESPN radio broadcast of the Series. It frees us from the annoyance of the lame Fox announcers and and irritating sound effects. It's just the opposite for me. I don't care much for Morgan and Miller. I think Fox has an entertaining bunch at this time. The sound effects are a different story, I could not agree more with you on that. Edited October 17, 2003 by catesta Quote
catesta Posted October 17, 2003 Report Posted October 17, 2003 Just heard a little blurp of Garciapara explaining that the fans should be thankful and proud because no one out there realizes or quite understands the tremendous stress and pressure they are under every single day. Oh, I guess I forgot they're making multi-millions playing a kids' game. Excellent point. The stress cry baby shit ranks up there with when they complain about the grueling travel schedules and the fatigue associated with it. Quote
BERIGAN Posted October 17, 2003 Report Posted October 17, 2003 (edited) I just wish this would put an end to the Yankee VS. Red Sox Rivalry. To be a rival, you have to have won ONCE against your rival when it counted. The Red Sox fans should have known that if your best pitcher is a nearly 40 year old knuckleballer(And he was great!) your chances were slim and none to win. If the Yankees had not gotten Conteras, and he had been on the Red Sox staff, The Red Sox most likely would have won....hell, the Boss was pissed the team hadn't gotten Ortiz during the offseason, just to be a pinch hitter....The Boss will get whatever free agent pitchers he can keep the Sox from getting, a right fielder, more middle relief and the Yankees will win again next year. The Sox won't hit as well,(how could they?) and Pedro is skinny and older, and will totally break down sooner, rather than latter. The Red Sox are just another version of the Washington Generals, no way will they ever beat the Yankees..... I'll put sportscenter on a few times next week to see if the Marlins beat the Yankees. Hope the ratings tank now.... time to start watching womens Ice Skating..... Edited October 17, 2003 by BERIGAN Quote
PHILLYQ Posted October 17, 2003 Report Posted October 17, 2003 I'm a Yankee fan(OK, go ahead and flame away, but I've been a fan since '64, and I've suffered through the Horace Clarke era, Stump, etc.), and I think Little deserves the Baseball Bonehead of the Year award, with Dusty Baker a close second. I thought Pedro was coming out after seven, as he rarely pitches beyond the seventh inning anymore and his pitch count was way up there. Little had a rested bullpen and plenty of guys he could use. The bullpen had also performed beautifully, better than the Yank bullpen(With the notable exception of Rivera.) For Chrissakes, he could have gone matchup on each batter for two innings! Rare is the player who is honest about whether they are gassed or not- the overwhelming majority will say that they are fine and can get the next guy. Little managed himself out of the game, and Torre made a few good moves to save the game from being a rout. Once he saw that Clemens didn't have it, he turned to Musiina, who pitched brilliantly in relief. Bringing in Wells backfired, but I could see the logic behind it. Keeping in a guy who was getting rapped around like Pedro was is absurd. In '86, McNamara left Buckner in when he had a better defnsive player in Dave Stapleton on the bench because he wanted Buckner to be part of the on-field celebration- curse, anyone? Quote
Dan Gould Posted October 17, 2003 Report Posted October 17, 2003 Berigan get your head out of your ass. It wasn't Pedro. It was Little! You are hereby invited to join all the Yankee fans and EAT SHITANDDIE Quote
Rooster_Ties Posted October 17, 2003 Report Posted October 17, 2003 Steve Bartman on ESPN - the guy who tried to catch that foul ball. Quote
BERIGAN Posted October 18, 2003 Report Posted October 18, 2003 Berigan get your head out of your ass. It wasn't Pedro. It was Little! You are hereby invited to join all the Yankee fans and EAT SHITANDDIE Head up my ass??? Who gave up the hits???? I don't care if he had thrown a whole 115 pitches!! Thats nothing for most starters that have been coddled all season!!! Jack Morris would have an ERA around 3.5/4 during the regular season, pitch 240+ innings yet he and Smoltz battled for what, 10 innings in the 91 WS???? Jack Morris was 36!!!! Actually, wasn't Pedro hitting 95 in that last inning? It was 5-3, and then a jam job bloop hit, anyone could have given that up. The Red Sox should have gotten one run off of Rivera . Jack McKeon had Josh Beckett pitch a complete game(why???) then come back a few days later and pitch four innings in relief...if he screwed up, it would have been all Jack McKeon's fault, but he now looks like a genius...... Quote
AfricaBrass Posted October 18, 2003 Report Posted October 18, 2003 Steve Bartman on ESPN - the guy who tried to catch that foul ball. Did you listen to the whole call? That was a Howard Stern prank call. Quote
maren Posted October 18, 2003 Report Posted October 18, 2003 (edited) BTW, Africa Brass -- has the formerly familiar head-of-a-cat morphed into a post-season play couch creature??? Now with 150% more catfish??? Was he a Red Sox or Cubs fan? Poor guy. Hope it doesn't take TOO many beers to drown his sorrows! Edited October 18, 2003 by maren Quote
vajerzy Posted October 18, 2003 Report Posted October 18, 2003 Thank you BERIGAN- you summed up my points better than I did. Quote
JSngry Posted October 18, 2003 Report Posted October 18, 2003 Sorry, but you either read the vibe right or you don't. Little didn't. That's not to say that if he had pulled Pedro that whoever he brought in would have aced it, because there's no way to say that. But he obviously stuck to the changes on the chart rather than listening to the what the rhythm section was feeding him. Baseball requires improvisation, not studio work. Wanna be a bureaucrat? Fine. Just don't do it and expect to win pennants. Quote
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