Funny Rat

[John B]

AMM:

Newfoundland

disc 2 of Laminal

Live in Allentown

Before Driving to the Chapel

AMMMusic

AMMMusic will be the least expensive for you to try. The discs on Matchless are pretty pricey with the current exchange rate.

Inexhaustible Document

[jon abbey]

I'd second these AMM suggestions of John's:

Newfoundland

Live in Allentown

Before Driving to the Chapel

AMMusic 1966 is the early, non-Tilbury incarnation, much closer to free noise, I'd say try that or the Crypt later. the second disc of Laminal is a career high point, but it's only sold as part of the 3 CD set.

I'd add Fine and Generative Themes to the three above, that'll give you a nice picture of the band with both Tilbury and Rowe.

I'm also obviously biased, but I'd say Duos for Doris is a stronger record than any AMM release, not sure if you've heard that or not.

[Д.Д.]

From the European Free Improv site:

Günter Christmann has issued, on Explico, Mal d'archive 2 with himself alongside Serge Baghdassarians and Boris Baltschun and Vario-41 by Boris Baltschun/John Butcher/Günter Christmann/Michael Griener in a limited edition of 150 numbered copies.

Anyone familiar with Edition Explico? With Günter Christmann?

I got Vario-41 at the TMM in Berlin last fall - still haven't listened to it.

Listened to Vario-41, and I htough it was quite weak - no interesting ideas (even from Butcher), no development, regular free-improv noodling. This might be the least successful deisc with Butcher I've heard so far.

[Д.Д.]

Has anyone here heard this disc:

Cooper-Moore - Deep in the Neighborhood of History and Influence (Hopscotch)

This is a live solo set recorded in Guelph in 1999. Cooper-Moore travels from fiery Cecil Taylor-esque avant garde to blues and swing as he pays tribute to the musicians that influenced and inspired him. The recording sounds great and this is some of the best Cooper-Moore I have ever heard. It is nice to hear him step out from the sideman's role he usually plays and really stretch out.

Highly recommended.

I got this one and gave it a couple of listens - it is simly great. Cooper-Moore is the only pianist who approaches the healthy eclectism of Jaki Byard (who is probably my all-time favorite pianist), seemlessly going through the whole history of the piano playing - form boogie to cecilesque to some brekneck tempo minimalist-type of passges. He is in a truly exuberant mood at this concert and often interrupts his playing with some stories (the guy loves to talk), which are (just as his music) jumping from one thing to another in a blink of an eye, but are really heartfelt and entertaining. The man is the music whether he talks or plays. Excellent sound, as John notes. I wish he recorded more solo. I got COoper-Moore's recent trio disc (on AUM) but haven't listened to it yet - but I can't imagine him doing all these wonders in a trio format.

[P.L.M]

RIVERS is one of the very great.

I think than our friend AA goes much banana this late - He gives up on BRAXTON!? A(h)A(h).

P.L.M., my friend, I went banana long time ago - nothing new here, Messrs. Rivers and Braxton have nothing to do with it.

Regarding Braxton, I have been invariably disppointed by his recent releases (duos with Cyrille, solo on Parallactic, etc.), culminating with horrendous 23 Standards set. I feel that the man ran out of ideas, and to a large extent of his (once-brilliant) technique - his sound is flat and not particualrly under control (IMO). Just listen to one of his earlier solo records back-to-back with any of his recent works - it is self-evident. I also was never a fan of Braxton-the-composer - his compositions sound to me extremely formal, dry and forced.

Regarding Rivers, I tend to appreciate his compositions much more than his playing (it was interesting to read that Joe Henderson had the same opinion).

His sound I find too dry for my taste with not enough depth, and I just cannot appreciate his improvisations - to me he sounds like he is always preparing to break loose but still holds himself back with solos never reaching a climax. I normally cannot keep myself interested listening to Rivers solos. Vista is excellent, though, so I might revisit some of the earlier Rivers CDs I have not listened to for years.

Don't have time for the moment but will answer as soon as possible.

Of course, I disagree with you on everything.

[Д.Д.]

Noticed that Anthony Braxton. Solo (Koln) 1978 (Leo) went OOP. This is a really good one.

[clifford_thornton]

AMM:

Newfoundland

disc 2 of Laminal

Live in Allentown

Before Driving to the Chapel

AMMMusic

AMMMusic will be the least expensive for you to try. The discs on Matchless are pretty pricey with the current exchange rate.

Inexhaustible Document

...exchange rates notwithstanding, The Crypt is a motherfucker. I have it on a double LP, but you get more music with the CDs. Like, way more.

To Hear and Back Again and At the Roundhouse, both Gare-Prevost duos, are pretty amazing sets, though not quite the same as the 'usual' AMM fare.

[Д.Д.]

I thought this one sounded quite interesting: Andy Moor and Kaffe Matthews: "Locks". I'll get it with my next CDBaby order - John B, are you with me?

Edited February 19, 2006 by Д.Д.

[Guest Chaney]

Thanks to everyone for the AMM recommendations. I believe I'll soon place and order... and pick up Deep in the Neighborhood of History and Influence.

I'm disappointed to hear that you, David, do not care for VARIO-41. Damn! And that Edition Explico order cost me a bundle.

~~~~~~~~~~

Anyone familar with the Durian label? Looks interesting but the label's North American distribution is very spotty and at 18 Euros each direct, a bit too expensive for this Yankee. 7/4? Sounds like sounds you might be into.

~~~~~~~~~~

Elephant 666 Orchestra - free album download

Posted by Lars Gotrich (Thursday February 16 2006 @ 12:56PM MST)

Long time lurker, first time poster....

Ladies and gentlemen, The Crisis! Compendium by the improv noise/metal/free-jazz/skronk Elephant 666 Orchestra is now available for download in two zip files. Someday I might print up a limited edition run or approach some internet labels about releasing it, but I just want to get it out there, especially for the musicians who haven't heard the album, yet. The Orchestra is an extension, I suppose, of a little project my friends and I had, but I stole the name and used it for a group of improvisers that I organized together every Sunday night at WUOG (Athens, GA) last summer to make noise for two hours. The revolving group of musicians included members of Telenovela/The Mooninites, We Versus the Shark, Anti-Music as well as h'arpeggione player Erik Hinds, who I know posts here every now and again.

Here are the links:

http://rapidshare.de/files/13364973/Elepha...stra_Disc_1.zip

http://rapidshare.de/files/13364295/Elepha...stra_Disc_2.zip

~~~~~~~~~~

Insubordinations [netlabel for improvised music]

Posted by insub (Sunday February 12 2006 @ 08:00AM MST) views: 33

Insubordinations is a netlabel dedicated to improvised music - freejazz or electroacoustic or other experimentations - catched without artifices, energy explosions, spontaneous constructions, abused structures, unstabilities, confrontations or simply absolute liberty.

the 2 first releases are online.

insubordinations

~~~~~~~~~~

A humorous exchange from over at the Bay Area New Music site:

Damon Smith:

7:30 pm friday feb. 17th @ temescal cafe 4920 telegraph

improvised music for trombone and double bass

Jen Baker..............................................trombone

Damon Smith......................................double bass

http://www.balancepointacoustics.com

http://www.bayimproviser.com/jenbaker

Gino Robair:

So we must have changed this list to a concert announcement list?

That's cool:

I'm sitting in with a band called Oingo Boingo tonight at a Valentine's Day

Frat Party at Bolt Hall. Bring your own keg.

Gino Robair....................drums

Oingo Boingo...................balls-out frat-party vibe

http://www.fratpartyvibe.com/oingoboingo

Http://www.ginosellsouttocoverhismortgage.net

Brady Sharp:

Awesome! Can I bring my laptop? I'm beta-testing this new Kelly

LeBrock cloning software. It'll be a hit with the frat boys and

they'll accept me.

The best thing is... it's open source! Screw Micro$oft!

Brady

(Chortling nerdily as he slaps Gino a hi-five)

Phillip Greenlief:

It's "Boldt", not "Bolt".

Hoppy Villiantine's Doi!

I'm celebrating my birthday solo-style at El Zocalo.

There are no invitations - no one is invited.

Dead Man's Party indeed...

Damon Smith:

since i already posted this, i should mention they have a very

respectable new sausage platter for $4. tried it today.

damon

END

I really do live on the wrong side on this country.

Edited February 19, 2006 by Chaney

[Д.Д.]

For the American rats:

Jazzloft.com has a sale on all Black Saint / Soul Note CDs - $15 per piece. Does not make much sense for us in Europe (there are a could pof good sources for these releases here9, but I assume this is the best price you can get itn the US. I will post a list of some of my favorite BS/SN discs later.

[Alexander Hawkins]

Looking forwards to the list! Where are the good sources over here for SN/BS?

[king ubu]

Yes David, please tell us about those good sources!

My collection of Blacksaint and Soulnote discs is still pretty thin, but here are some favourites:

** Black Saint **

120006-2 In:Sanity Beaver Harris 360 Degree Music Experience

120040-2 FLAT-OUT JUMP SUITE JULIUS HEMPHILL QUARTET

120093-2 IN WILLISAU DEWEY REDMAN -ED BLACKWELL

** Soul Note **

121020-2 GASLINI PLAYS MONK GIORGIO GASLINI

121054-2 REGENERATION RUDD -LACY -MENGELBERG -CARTER -BENNINK

121170-2 SEMPRE AMORE MAL WALDRON-STEVE LACY

121298-2 COMMINIQUÉ STEVE LACY-MAL WALDRON

121311-2 LES HOMMES ARMÉS GIANLUIGI TROVESI OCTET

121340-2 BALADE DU 10 MARS MARTIAL SOLAL TRIO

121350/1-2 L' INTEGRALE - CD N° 1-CD N° 2 GIORGIO GASLINI

And some "good fun but nothing all that great" ones:

** Black Saint **

120008-2 TRICKLES STEVE LACY-ROSWELL RUDD

120021-2 JUNK TRAP CHARLES BOBO SHAW HUMAN ARTS ENSEMBLE

120109-2 VOODOO SONNY CLARK MEMORIAL QUARTET

120123-2 LIVING ON THE EDGE DEWEY REDMAN QUARTET (not sure this deserves being listed...)

120182-2 FLOOD AT THE ANT FARM PHILLIP JOHNSTON'S BIG TROUBLE

** Soul Note **

121185-2 THE WINDOW STEVE LACY TRIO

121229-2 THE PONDERER THE ODEAN POPE SAXOPHONE CHOIR (I know, P.L.M., I know... )

121270-2 AYLER'S WINGS GIORGIO GASLINI

121282-2 THE SUN DIED ELLERY ESKELIN

I also have two Glenn Spearman's that are at least good, but not being sure which ones they are, I rather don't post wrong ones... I think one is "Smokehouse", the other I'm not sure about.

[Guest Chaney]

I too wouldn't mind recommendations on Black Saint and Soul Note titles -- thanks Flurin! -- but North American Rats should be aware -- or be made aware -- that this Jazz Loft sale is no great shakes as Cadence already sells the offerings of both labels at $15 each.

All too often, when it comes to sales, The Jazz Loft is late to the table.

[John B]

David,

the Moore / Matthews disc sounds very interesting. I'll give the soundclips a listen.

Jon,

How would you rate the AMM set in Boston a few years back relative to the discs you recommended to Chaney?

[jon abbey]

Jon,

How would you rate the AMM set in Boston a few years back relative to the discs you recommended to Chaney?

huh. I don't like to compare recordings and concerts, two different animals. the Boston show (the one that was part of Autumn Uprising) was the best of the AMM sets I saw (somewhere around 10, I think). why do you ask?

[John B]

huh. I don't like to compare recordings and concerts, two different animals. the Boston show (the one that was part of Autumn Uprising) was the best of the AMM sets I saw (somewhere around 10, I think). why do you ask?

I'm curious about your "recordings vs. concerts" comment.

Aren't all AMM discs the recordings of live concerts? Did AMM know in advance that a concert would be released or were all shows recorded and select shows were chosen for release after the fact?

I asked about the Boston show as it is available in trading circles and would be a nice way for Chaney to test the waters before placing an order for imported discs he might not care for. That's all.

[jon abbey]

recordings are recordings and concerts are concerts, two different experiences, even if the recordings are of live shows. a memory of a concert isn't really a fair comparison to a recording that you play through your stereo and can revisit multiple times, it's just apples and oranges.

the Boston recording floating around doesn't do a great job of capturing the feeling that was in that room that night, although I haven't heard it in a while.

[Guest Chaney]

(...)

I asked about the Boston show as it is available in trading circles and would be a nice way for Chaney to test the waters before placing an order for imported discs he might not care for. That's all.

A wonderful board member who shall remain nameless (!yrag sknaht) is sending me his unloved copy of Newfoundland so I'll be getting a free taste of AMM.

Jon: I do have Duos For Doris. I haven't listened to it in a long time but the last go 'round, I did my usual whining: HOW CAN ANYONE LIKE THIS CRAP! Unfamiliar sounds tend to throw me and so I put the recording aside for another day. I whined in a similar (no doubt) irritating manner over John's Avatar; I really should give both a fresh spin.

[jon abbey]

AMM actually took me a while to get really into/understand after I first encountered them. I read about them in the first edition of the Penguin Guide and when Peter Stubley's EFI site started up, then I happened to see a copy of The Crypt for sale at the Jazz Record Center, so I picked it up. I really didn't get it, but for some reason, I gradually picked up a handful more of their releases and I saw them here in 1994 (the show that's the third disc of Laminal, not one of their better moments, live or on disc). it was about the fifth disc I got that was the breakthrough, it happened to be Generative Themes, but I think it was more important that it was the fifth and that I'd let this kind of music sink in for a few years. it was hard for me to understand at the time how musicians could be seemingly ignoring each other but the whole could still add up to far more than the sum of the parts. but once I connected with it, it changed my life, no hyperbole there.

anyway, it's funny, now the AMM discography is mostly a little too old-school for my tastes (not all of it, but too often Prevost jumps out of the mix to break the atmosphere). I do think the comment "unfamiliar sounds tend to throw me" is a strange one for someone obviously into so much of what this thread covers, but I guess I understand. I don't think it's the sounds that throw you, I think it's the logic behind them, it's a different way of thinking, but maybe you know that already.

[Guest Chaney]

I don't think it's the sounds that throw you, I think it's the logic behind them, it's a different way of thinking, but maybe you know that already.

Jon: Care to comment of this bit of a Jazz Review "blindfold" listening session from John Butcher:

TONY OXLEY

Quartet 1, from The Tony Oxley Quartet (1992)

Derek Bailey (g); Tony Oxley (perc); Pat Thomas (elec); Matt Wand (drum machine, tapes).

INCUS CD 15

Derek Bailey and.... Ingar Zach? Oh, it's Oxley and.... probably Pat Thomas, and I think Matt Wand's in there somewhere.

Tell us about the difficulties of playing with electronics.

There's a lot of different kinds of electronics now. The earlier school, if you like, which this is part of - they can chop and change between, not just quite different sounds, but idiomatic references can come flowing in and out, and if you're using samplers you can have a little snippet of three beats from an organ trio, and then something else, and then something else - how do you respond to that on the saxophone, when every time somebody throws something at you they then pull the carpet out from under you? I've worked with (Steve) Beresford a bit, and he can be like that. You can get into something, then suddenly it's all gone - it can he twittering birds where a minute ago it was rumbling big-band music. In a way there's a kind of energy there, because the ingredients can be like rhythmic stabs in the music, as much as referring to idioms.

But there's also a new area of electronic music, from some of Viennese musicians I work with, for instance, which seems to be very concerned with not having the kind of expressive quality from this locality of playing, particularly with the laptop players. You can have very slow-moving, sustained sounds, which begin and end cleanly, and it's completely different from an acoustic instrument, which has various problem areas - a note always starts with some measure of attack. I find that an interesting area to work in, too.

I don't want to remove expression from what I do, but it's intriguing to try and pull yourself away from the way your body makes you play and into the way your mind might make you play. Which is what the laptop people are doing. There's no physical relationship between what they're doing and the sounds they're making. It's as if it's straight from up there and into the sound source. To me, that's the most significant split in improvised music in recent times. Ultimately, my roots are in this English, quick-listening, quick-response way of playing.

There might be a problem for the listener in all this. Some of these situations may have conceptual and procedural substance for the participants, while the audience could question whether it's actually interesting to listen to.

The drones have really taken over a lot of the electronic side. I don't know if it's a generational thing, but what I've found at some of these festivals is that the audience seem to work in a different time-frame. I don't know if it's drugs, or whatever (laughs).

In many ways, the most influential improvising group has turned out to be AMM, at least as far as the younger scene is concerned. You could say that it's easier to approach from that direction, rather than the kind of instrumental virtuosity represented by Evan or John.

The best players in this area, I find, are usually those who've had some background on a conventional instrument first and have then gone into electronics. Some of the fans of that kind of music would say it just shows how empty instrumental virtuosity is, and what matters is what your ideas are, not ten years of working in a little room on the physical problems of your instrument. But I think that those ten years of working on the minutiae of your instrument are invaluable. You're focusing on sound, controlling sound, and ultimately the body is the fastest physical controller.

The Test

Edited February 21, 2006 by Chaney

[jon abbey]

interesting, is that whole thing online somewhere?

I have huge amounts of respect for John, he's probably my favorite saxophonist in the world (pretty much the only one I can listen to these days). but he is rooted somewhat in first generation EFI (as he says there), and there are even newer waves of musicians coming up, who he's probably not so familiar with. as far as the London scene goes, Mark Wastell and the group of musicians around him (Graham Halliwell, Matt Davis, sometimes Phil Durrant) are probably the most currently tapped into what's happening in international improv in 2006. John is a bit UK-centric, despite his extensive work with the Vienna crew, and occasional dips into the Tokyo crew, his mindset is still very rooted in the London scene's way of thinking about things.

[jon abbey]

oh, I see the link now, thanks...

[clifford_thornton]

Concerts vs. Concert recordings - all seems to me like good old Bob Smithson, the whole site/non-site dialectic. As in, the work as it "occurs" experienced live has a set of rules that are entirely its own, and a recording of such a work has a completely different context and rules, essentially making each of them two different works. Like how an Ansel Adams photograph of the Rockies and actually being at or in that same geographical spot in Real Time/Experience are entirely different things. Funny to be invoking Adams here with AMM and Bob Smithson, but whatever...

[Guest akanalog]

as far as blacke saint/soule note if you don't have them-the andrew cyrille lead quartet albums from the early 80s (late 70s?) are excellent. i am thinking primarily of "the navigator" "special people" and "metamusicians stomp". i do not think these cyrille albums get enough credit for being among the best small group performances of this time period.

[Guest Chaney]

wow, Temps Duree is still around? did you get confirmation of that from Christmann? I thought I bought the last copies of that from Thomas like 4-5 years ago. really good record, and awesome packaging...

I received my Edition Explico order today, with temps duree numbered 148/150. While I didn't ask Gunter how many copies remained, I'm guessing that the disks leave him in numerical order and so those wanting to get their hands on a copy of this one should act quickly.

VERY strange packaging: a standard jewel case with two pieces of wood attached to the cover, one painted yellow and flat and the other painted red. (The entire front of the jewel case is covered by the two pieces of wood.) If you open the CD case, the inside front shows the yellow and red bits of wood through the clear plastic, attached with what appears to be yellow double-sided tape. (May not be tape as the wood is so firmly attached.) Inside, glued to the inside of the liner notes, are two strings, one metal and the other a synthetic material.

As Carson would say, wild, wacky stuff!

But now, to have a listen...

As a freebie, I was also sent a copy of the very beautifully packaged nat nat. That'd be explico 03 with Bosetti / Christmann. NOW to find a turntable as it's a 45, pressed on very heavy vinyl.

Edited February 21, 2006 by Chaney