Funny Rat

[David Ayers]

I don't like the sound much either. I can see why this is collectable but maybe it is one of those holy grail recordings that doesn't quite warrant the ebay price?

You can say what ever you want about this record (one of the master piece of TAYLOR recordings). But one thing who's sure, it's his incredible sound quality.

At least, if you take the bannanas from your ears, you could hear (I hope) the indisputable value that sound quality brings to this record.

As mentioned, I do nto have the disc, so cannot add my authoritative and definitive opinion, but could it be that David refers to older edition of the album, not the remaster released last year:

Yes I was referring to the old one - I forgot that it had been remastered and reissued. That also makes my warning about paying ebay prices redundant.

Which old one? ONE TOO MANY... was first an LP box and has always sound fine among all the badly recorded CT.

And the reedition on hatOLGY didn't make the first worse with Peter Pfister in charge of the remastering.

So, I don't still get why "you don't like the sound".

Maybe it's CT that you don'y like. What is fine with me.

I was discussing the first CD issue, not the LPs which I have never heard. I've no problem with the aesthetic of ecstacy and trance in this music, but with CT as with Keith Jarrett, sometimes the length of performance steers my mind from the projected mood to the actual notes - and then I can get restless. In general I like CT's groups but dislike some of his solo efforts. Salty Swift turns out to be an exception for me - just one of those things. Yet I can really get into the 1969 concert with Rivers, which is in worse sound and (most seem to think) not as musically coherent.

[king ubu]

Funny that Gebbia pops up again... I bought this one cheap on saturday and enjoyed the first spin very much:

This is a trio recording with Gebbia on alto and soprano, and notably a great bass player. To his trio is added Massimo Simonini who does some electronic processing and some sounds stuff, which I found quite likeable, and quite fitting with the rest of the music.

********************

Phill Niblock anyone?

Some info here (sorry, I can't insert any links or use any Big-O buttons and I don't know how to manually insert a link):

http://touchshop.org/index.php

I just ordered the new 3CD set and the previous 2CD set (did not order the 1CD release... hurdy-gurdy anyone? Except for the excellent Intakt disc with Frith, not me...) - "Touch Three" and "Touch Food" (cover below).

Not sure what to expect, but after finally reading Dan Warburton's title story of the March Wire, I just had to order some of Niblock's music - sounds totally intriguing, to say the least.

Edited April 4, 2006 by king ubu

[jon abbey]

I haven't heard the new triple disc Niblock yet, but I've heard the bulk of his earlier work. it's pretty similar to itself, I don't think you need too much. the release I like is called A Young Person's Guide to Phill Niblock, it compiles some of his seventies work, not sure if it's in print or not. he'll be in this year's ErstQuake, in the matinee in duo with Thomas Ankersmit (profiled in last month's Paris Transatlantic).

[king ubu]

I haven't heard the new triple disc Niblock yet, but I've heard the bulk of his earlier work. it's pretty similar to itself, I don't think you need too much. the release I like is called A Young Person's Guide to Phill Niblock, it compiles some of his seventies work, not sure if it's in print or not. he'll be in this year's ErstQuake, in the matinee in duo with Thomas Ankersmit (profiled in last month's Paris Transatlantic).

Thanks Jon - it does sound like most of Niblock's music is somewhat similar, yes... but the two sets I ordered added up to 25£ (for 5 discs), so I figured I'd get both... maybe not a smart move. That "Young Person's Guide" disc was mentioned in the article, too, and I guess it would make for a good starting point.

[Д.Д.]

Funny that Gebbia pops up again... I bought this one cheap on saturday and enjoyed the first spin very much:

This is a trio recording with Gebbia on alto and soprano, and notably a great bass player. To his trio is added Massimo Simonini who does some electronic processing and some sounds stuff, which I found quite likeable, and quite fitting with the rest of the music.

This is my second-favorite CD if Gebbia (after you-know-what) - and I have a lot of Gebbia, as you might guess. I think the trio shows some impressive interplay, Gebbia is the most melodic (I don't think he plays soprano much on other records - and he is excellent on soprano), and the samples/electronics is hilarious, really adding a lot to the overall slightly absurd feeling.

The melody of the first track is mesmerizing. I think this CD is OOP now, so I would recommend getting it asap (it was a available at 50% discout at jazzos.com for a long time - possibly still is).

[David Ayers]

OK I was slow, but I got there:

I got here too:

Some late works say little or nothing. These are still going strong. Ballads is just the best, quite amazing... as many others have already pointed out. Like I say - I was slow, but I got there.

[7/4]

I haven't heard the new triple disc Niblock yet, but I've heard the bulk of his earlier work. it's pretty similar to itself, I don't think you need too much. the release I like is called A Young Person's Guide to Phill Niblock, it compiles some of his seventies work, not sure if it's in print or not.

What he said. :rsly:

[Alexander Hawkins]

OK I was slow, but I got there:

I got here too:

Some late works say little or nothing. These are still going strong. Ballads is just the best, quite amazing... as many others have already pointed out. Like I say - I was slow, but I got there.

Quite - Ballads is phenomenal. I thought that to start with, and still it's grown on me!

In some improv circles, it's quite fashionable nonchalantly to dismiss this one - 'Derek was doing this all along, but only got noticed when he bolted standards on to the ends of his improvisations' - but I think this is disingenuous. Beautiful recording.

[Guest Chaney]

Anyone have any SOFA recommendations? Any that should be avoided?

~~~~~~~~~~

Up for pre-ordering at Balance Point Acoustics:

bpa 011 - Sextessence

john butcher/aaron bennett/henry kaiser/danielle degruttola/damon smith/jerome bryerton

Edited April 14, 2006 by Chaney

[Alexander Hawkins]

Anyone have any SOFA recommendations? Any that should be avoided?

~~~~~~~~~~

Up for pre-ordering at Balance Point Acoustics:

bpa 011 - Sextessence

john butcher/aaron bennett/henry kaiser/danielle degruttola/damon smith/jerome bryerton

Don't know them, but I like the look of the two 'Sofas' featuring Pat Thomas.

[.:.impossible]

I just realized how difficult it is to navigate Funny Rat. This post will disappear.

There is an upside and a downside to Funny Rat. Many people who would otherwise have missed your comments will read your post because it is in FR. Many other people will miss it because it is buried in FR and not in its own Cecil thread.

All posts in all threads disappear, sooner or later.

Didn't mean to sound snarky--the pace is a bit of the fun, anyhow (a real discussion, for a change). Regardless, I wouldn't call it a personal disservice to avoid FR altogether--it's the proverbial Organissimo kitchen (and stay out, if you don't want to get burned). It's hard enough to quick scan, let alone post (I'll always admire the regulars, anyhow ).

I didn't discover this until recently, but there is a small button beside every thread topic that looks like a ^. If you click it, it takes you to the most recent post since your last visit. Since I discovered this feature, I've been checking this thread a lot more often!

[Д.Д.]

Anyone have any SOFA recommendations? Any that should be avoided?

I have two SOFA releases. I listened only once to each, but both left very positive impression:

Ingar Zach - "Percussion Music"

No Spaghetti Edition - "Real Time Satellite Data"

I would really need to listen to them at least one more time to add anythng more specific.

[ep1str0phy]

I didn't discover this until recently, but there is a small button beside every thread topic that looks like a ^. If you click it, it takes you to the most recent post since your last visit. Since I discovered this feature, I've been checking this thread a lot more often!

Honestly, thanks for that.

More to the music--Evan Parker's back catalogue is a little dense, although I have been a little more on point as of late--starting to fill in the holes. I've seen very little cogent critical analysis of Parker's EA work; I'd be interested in hearing some opinions.

[clifford_thornton]

I heard some of it several years ago; thought it was cool but ultimately left me a little cold. Though the musicianship might be a little more "together" now, similar efforts from the late '70s on Bead, Vinyl and Incus have that throw-shit-at-the-wall-and-see-if-it-sticks quality that I enjoy a bit more.

[Steve Reynolds]

I'll post a couple of my reviews of Parker recordings here:

Recorded 1997

Released a few years back on Parker’s PSI label

Evan Parker: tenor and soprano saxophones

Barry Guy: double bass

Paul Lytton: drums/percussion

When I bought this when it was released, I was on the way out of my mind – and my patience was wearing thin for all things everywhere – and it seemed that this was simply more of the same – maybe like the “50th Birthday Concert” (1994) set with the trio, or a newer version of “Atlanta” (1986) – but not on the level of the incredible “At The Vortex” (1996)

My initial impressions were something on the order of why they (he) would release this. Then again, I couldn’t really gather the patience for anything musical by the time I bought it.

First off what is the a purpose for Parker-Guy-Lytton trio today 25 or so years into the partnership?

And this recording is from 1997, not today. I saw a similar trio (with von Schlippenbach in place of Guy – in NYC ) on their North American Tour in 2003 – of which there is a 2 CD set that I havn’t heard. Thye were pretty damn great, I think, but I wasn’t in as involved with music as I once was – so maybe the arguably formulaic nature of the music was more in my head than it was in the music.

Or maybe the formula isn’t important. I know some people here *used* to love this music – and now have moved on to more “cutting edge” or newer forms of music – mostly not jazz

And for some, is this jazz?

I think it is – in fact, it is – but for those who don’t think so – from the laft or the right – so be it – not that important.

So what happens on this disc?

An opening 12 minute tenor-bass-drum improvisation – similar to what has been heard before – but some internal snarling intensity – especially from Parker and Guy has me revisiting my past musical experiences – the 10 minute (almost obligatory?) feature with Parker on the soprano – which always seems to feature some sort of circular breathing exposition – ok – some nice things – but the most moving aspects are when he plays the soprano in a manner close to his incendiary tenor stylings.

The centerpiece follows – a 38 minute (maybe a whole set? – this stuff is usually played in shorter than normal sets – it is pretty damn intense – especially for the unitiated – well I’ve had the thing up loud, and here no different - the Guy/Lytton dialogue about 15-20 minutes is is crunchy, gripping and has me soaring in my head – Parker returns – some oraganically played circular stuff on the tenor – and some of the most intense, squirrelly and beyond fucking possible FREE jazz playing ensues over the last half of the piece.

Well if this is rote, some people can get jaded to true greatness. I understand why – this is the same stuff they have played and will play – but I argue against the bailey thesis that after a while – what is the point of playing with the same guys in a free improve settings – I say it does still qualify as a surprise – maybe only on the margins – but maybe that is not why they exist and play in this format to this day…

A little 5 minute snippet follows – seems to pick up the playing in progress and leaves unnaturally – but listening to it loud and intently one hears the reason for music of this sort – when this trio hits this type of pinnacle, there is no band that comes near this balls out intensity – doesn’t exist – and it exists in the margins of what is music of this sort. Parker plays some runs and lines on the tenor that simply come nowhere near existing on anyone else’s horn.

The 7 minute closing track starts with Parker out – and builds to a seeming conclusion until Parker plays the closing 30-40 seconds into an ending that defies logic – it can’t exist.

But it does

Still my guy – like nothing else in this world

And this new guy needs to see him with this trio – just once in this life

The Ayes Have It, baby

[Steve Reynolds]

Parker-Edwards-Sanders: The Two Seasons

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Disc 1 recorded 2/15/99

Disc 2 recorded 7/28/99

In London live @ The Vortex

Winter and summer

Almost all of 2 sets that were played each of those nights

Evan Parker: tenor saxophone on all but one 17 minute section during the later session

John Edwards: amplified double bass

Mark Sanders: percussion (mostly drums and cymbals)

On a whim I looked for a review or two on this recording this morning and found a middling one @ AMG that made me think that the reviewer certainly didn’t listen through the whole thing

“One thing sure, there is less fire, less sparks in these recordings than on other recent releases from the saxophone legend”

Now one could say many things about this recording, but I would doubt that this would be something that one who made an effort to engage themselves in this set would write. Then again, who knows how many reviews the reviewer writes on a daily or weekly basis.

As some here know, this has long been a favorite of mine. It was my favorite recording when it was issued (maybe in 2001). This was before I had any real exposure to other music that has since become a prime interest of mine. It was about 2-3 years into my interest in Evan Parker’s music. I had little or no awareness of John Edwards. I had listened to Mark Sanders through John Law’s 1992 recording “Exploded on Impact” and a couple of John Lloyd CD’s with John Law from the mid 90’s.

I had become entranced with Parker after seeing him live in the basement at the knit somewhere around 1999 – with Mark Dresser and Bobby Previte. I remember that I got the last seat available and that Parker hit some sort of peak on tenor a couple of times throughout a hourish set with the bassist and drummer playing with or without him. And as great a bassist as Dresser is, and as fine a drummer as Previte is, I doubt if I heard a recording of that set today that it would be anything more than a decent set.

Based on what Evan Parker is, that is – if I had known at the time.

Still seeing this man play a tenor saxophone - and the tenor is still *it* for me – the other horn is surely wonderous in his hands – he did invent a new language on this horn – but I often think his circular journeys to places no one else even ventures to are more an exhibition than a delivery of what rocks my soul - and his playing on the soprano is of a different purpose and a different strength that what comes out of the tenor saxophone.

When Evan Parker is playing music that comes from his original inspiration (seeing Coltrane as a very young man live @ Vanguard circa 1961) this is when heights can be reached that are a bit beyond description. Part of what happens on this disc is beyond words. I had lent this set out to a friend and had not heard it in about 8-9 months.

First off, the winter set has it’s moments of great intensity – and this is concentrated improvisation that is as close to the free jazz idiom as Parker and his mates will ever get. There is very little circular stuff on either horn – and as stated above, it is all tenor – even the soprano portion during the summer sets includes very little of his circular breathing – fact is Sanders hits the bass drum (I think?) so hard during part of his breathing deal that one almost might think it means stop and let’s get back to the skronk.

And there is more than a little skronk. But is more than just power. The first disc hits some peaks during the second portion (the recording is based on almost all of for forty minute sets – where the music was played continuously and only broken up on record for listener convenience) – and the key force throughout this music is Mark Sanders. We know what Evan Parker is – we know that his technique and capabilities by this point in his career (55 years old – playing forever in his own journey to wherever) – some also feel that because of what he is capable it is very easy for Parker to just play – it is almost too easy for him to do what he does – even though there is really no one else capable of playing what he plays – really no one who has ever played what he plays.

But the real peaks happen in the summer – some during the first third of the 80 minutes – and then the beyond – after the soprano section – after Edwards shows us that he is the skronkiest – earthiest bassist in improvisational music – and when we hear him recorded up front like this – when we as listeners become thoroughly engaged – we hear Evan Parker and Mark Sanders take “high energy free jazz” to the fucking Vortex.

Really beyond the comprehensible – if we are talking of music made by traditional instruments – of a formula – within a formula – but beyond what should be possible within relatively standard operating procedures – where we hear drums-bass-tenor, this is not of the AMM to the egoless stream of way of doing things – this is clearly post-Trane free jazz with a drummer and bassist and saxophonist who have made this music clearly their own – and if those who come from the places that is more out of Ayler-Wright-Lyons-Lowe-Mateen-Ware – and those who have played – or play with them, they might not recognize this music being as close to that tradition as it is – but when you have a bassist who don’t sound anything like guys like Peacock, Grimes, Hopkins – and drummer who has nothing coming from Murray or Graves – a drummer who comes more out of Oxley, Lytton, Lovens or even Stevens – but even sounds nothing like those guys – he comes out of nowhere and creates the most monsterous and intricate base that exists on any free jazz recording I have ever heard – and he creates it here – and it is different in intensity, volume - the biggest ability is his restraint – he can play louder and with more power than any drummer there is – but he makes one wait for the biggest impact – listen to those last 24 minutes – but listen to the previous 130 first – and experience this.

Never higher, never greater

A set of this intensity and greatness gets played by anyone at a Vision Fest, it would be historic. Mark Sanders would be known as one of the giants in music – too bad he probably again won’t be heard live this year on this side of the pond – as far as I know, the only time he ever played an improvisational gig in the States was on 5/16/2001 with Parker, Berne and Gress.

Best Evan Parker recording I own – or have ever heard – lack of fire – dude isn’t listening – it may be that we know the context of what these guys will play – what we don’t know is how they can play with intensity that we think has already been achieved –and then – 10 or 15 minutes later, it is at a different plateau - *this* is truly the wonder of what Evan Parker is capable of. It isn’t the blues, it isn’t really anything other than a personal exploration into what this music can make him or the interested listener feel.

And nothing has even made me feel like this recording makes me feel – nothing musical that is

Thank god (jah) I am alive in *my* new summer to experience it once again

peace and blessings

[jon abbey]

pretty sure the request was for opinions about Parker's electroacoustic work, Steve.

[Nate Dorward]

Ep1.: here's one take on the first two Parker EAP discs, by Walter Horn:

http://www.paristransatlantic.com/magazine...eb_text.html#13

& Richard Hutchinson on the 3rd disc:

http://www.paristransatlantic.com/magazine...sep_text.html#9

I have only heard the 1st disc, Toward the Margins; I liked it, though somehow it doesn't come out for spins very often. Seemed rather tame compared to the very loud & dense performance at Victo I caught (Jon was there too I believe) with Sainkho Namchylak guesting.

[Guest Chaney]

I didn't discover this until recently, but there is a small button beside every thread topic that looks like a ^. If you click it, it takes you to the most recent post since your last visit. Since I discovered this feature, I've been checking this thread a lot more often!

Very glad to hear that!

[jon abbey]

yeah, the ECM electroacoustic ensemble releases are all ECM-ized in terms of smoothing out the production. I asked Parker about it once, and he said that's the way he wanted it, but the Victo set was much more exciting (and successful), to my ears.

Parker was in the avant-garde of combining electronics with free improvisation, but he seems to still be stuck where he was when he started, and the rest of the world has moved on and past him. it's a little hard for me to believe at this point that there was a time when I considered him one of my couple of favorite musicians in the world.

[ep1str0phy]

yeah, the ECM electroacoustic ensemble releases are all ECM-ized in terms of smoothing out the production. I asked Parker about it once, and he said that's the way he wanted it, but the Victo set was much more exciting (and successful), to my ears.

That's precisely the impression that I've been getting. I've been listening to 'Memory/Vision' a lot recently, and it's struck me just how supremely mellow the whole affair is. I'll just assume from your dialogue that the ECM material wasn't so much ECM-ized as 'built' for the ECM sound--that sort of anesthetized vibe that makes for good, soothing, if not exactly blood-boiling listening. '50th Birthday Concert' has been getting even more spins around my apartment--and it's remarkable that the second trio is a part of the EAE--moreover, that Evan Parker was part of the Incus tribe, or even a ringer member of the BoB. Not saying that any one musician should get stuck in the same (lifelong) groove--it's just that I can hear certain possibilities, and they don't always come to fruition.

[Alexander Hawkins]

On the subject (sort of) of the Vortex, can I drop in a quick plug for any UK rats? I'm there for my first Vortex gig with a new quartet, featuring, among others, the fantastic Pete McPhail, formerly of the London Jazz Composers' Orchestra on Monday 24th of this month. We're being joined by special guest Orphy Robinson. Anyway, if anyone fancies it..! (www.vortexjazz.co.uk)

***apologies for shameless promotion***

[clifford_thornton]

Parker was in the avant-garde of combining electronics with free improvisation, but he seems to still be stuck where he was when he started, and the rest of the world has moved on and past him. it's a little hard for me to believe at this point that there was a time when I considered him one of my couple of favorite musicians in the world.

I dunno, that might be taking it a little far... but I would agree that electro-acoustic improvisation has gone in a very different direction than the skittering contact-mike-everything-we-can-find improv of the mid-70s. What Parker did on those ECMs seemed in a netherworld between the primitive and the advanced, erring a bit to the right of centre. Circadian Rhythm and the duos with Lytton are amazing records, but there's really no need for him to continue those investigations. I'd much rather hear him play post-Coltrane freebop like I did in Minneapolis last year than something that most of the music world has gone beyond. I hate to say something is dated, but great as it is, I can't imagine all that February Papers racket being made today - or at least not with the sense of purpose that it had at the time.

Still, the Schlippenbach-Parker-Lovens trio, which I had the pleasure of seeing some years back in Berlin, was one of the greatest concerts I have seen in my life. There is still room for *that* music today, not "investigating" but plunging headlong into action.

[P.L.M]

Still, the Schlippenbach-Parker-Lovens trio, which I had the pleasure of seeing some years back in Berlin, was one of the greatest concerts I have seen in my life. There is still room for *that* music today, not "investigating" but plunging headlong into action.

Yes, there is, of course.

I like EAI as (most) of other forms of improvisation that I've encounter so far, but, I'm sorry, EAI doesn't feel the map alone for me. Very far to.

Ther's good, ther's bad and even VERY BAD EAI.

Including on the ERSTWHILE label.

Edited April 17, 2006 by P.L.M

[jon abbey]

I like EAI as (most) of other forms of improvisation that I've encounter so far, but, I'm sorry, EAI doesn't feel the map alone for me. Very far to.

Ther's good, ther's bad and even VERY BAD EAI.

Including on the ERSTWHILE label.

of course, most of any genre is crap. I'd like to hear your specifics regarding Erstwhile, though.