Bob Weinstock and Me

[catesta]

actually some of my more interesting experiences are going into a book that I have been working on--on and off--for a few years.

There better be some mention of me in that damn thing.

Dan, congrats again.

[Christiern]

Dan, I can always do a Rummy--and leak!

[Adam]

Bob Weinstock did a nice interview for the Gryce book. He talked quite a bit about his own history, the history of the label, who his favorite players for sessions were, etc. We put what we could of this into the book. Prestige actually had a hit way earlier than one might think - Moody's Mood for Love. That did a lot of good things for the label.

Mike

That's great. Read this and see if there are any good follow-ups.

Ask him what he now listens to most. How many records does he own? Does he ever download music? What does he think of the music industry today?

How did Prestige advertise? What was effective advertising?

[Christiern]

How did Prestige advertise? What was effective advertising?

Jazz labels routinely advertised in publications like Metronome and Down Beat, but the promotional value was minimal. All musicians read Down Beat, so seeing their recordings advertised there was more something that kept them happy than something that sold records. A good article or review, on the other hand, was effective. Other than a good write-up in a national publication like TIME or a Tonight show-level TV appearance, I believe regular local radio exposure and a good performance schedule was the best way to sell albums.

Besides boosting the morale of musicians, an ad in Down Beat kept alive a magazine that could be relied on for free publicity.

[brownie]

Dan, let me add my congratulations.

I'ld love to hear Weinstock's recollections of sessions like The Miles Davis Collectors Items date with Rollins and Parker. And of course, the Miles Davis-Thelonious Monk session.

Couple of questions I would ask:

- why did Coltrane appear on only one track of the Sonny Rollins Tenor Madness album? Was this the original plan?

- why are there practically no alternate tracks of some of the great Prestige sessions?

[king ubu]

- why are there practically no alternate tracks of some of the great Prestige sessions?

That's an interesting question, and one I did wonder about many times, too!

Another thing might be the jam sessions. How did they come to happen? All organized ahead? Or just some cats hanging around in the studio?

Maybe ask him about the late Mal Waldron, who seemed to play a quite important role in many of these jam session albums.

Ask him about his "house" musicians, such as Waldron, Art Taylor, P.C. etc (well, I know they recorded for what label they could, but there were some appearing more often on Prestige, some more often on Blue Note etc. Sonny Clark, for instance, never made a date for one of the nowadays Fantasy-owned labels, except for that Sonny Rollins one, did he? How came?)

And of course, Dan, let me express my heartily congratulations!

(Can you tell us already where this interview will be printed? Any chance to read it here in Europe, too?)

ubu

[rockefeller center]

Moondog released three albums on Prestige. I'd like to know how Prestige and Moondog (not really being a Jazz guy) found each other. Maybe there's a chance you could ask him about that. Good luck for the interview.

[Dan Gould]

(Can you tell us already where this interview will be printed? Any chance to read it here in Europe, too?)

There's no telling at this point. I'll offer it to Cadence Magazine initially, but when I told them who I was interviewing, they pointed out that its somewhat outside their usual scope, which concentrates on musicians, not producers. But he said if there's lots of first-person stories about sessions and artists, he'd be interested.

But as Chuck said, if Cadence passes, there will be other's who will be interested. Who exactly I am not sure, but I'm sure Chuck will have some suggestions, should it come to that.

[wolff]

I'm curious about his relationship/feelings about Shirley Scott, Gene Ammons, Eddie Davis and Mose Allison.

[Dan Gould]

One just occured to me as I looked at an OJC: "Supervision by Bob Weinstock"

Why did he prefer "supervisor" to "producer"?

[Christiern]

It was not uncommon, especially in Europe, to use the term "supervisor" rather than "producer." Actually, it was a far more appropriate job description at sessions where the proceedings were, in fact, produced by the artist(s) under the label representative's supervision. Make sense?

[Dan Gould]

Yes, but still something noticeably different about Prestige, something to mention ...

[Chuck Nessa]

Yes, but still something noticeably different about Prestige, something to mention ...

When I "produced" my first dates for Delmark in the mid '60s, Bob Koester listed my part as "supervision" and listed himself as "producer". He said the diff was he provided the money, manufacturing capacity, etc.

You should understand there were no production credits on BN lps until Alfred left. Frank, Rudy and Reid got credit but Lion stayed in the background.

[Big Al]

Are there any Prestige sessions that he feels are overlooked because they weren't on a label like Blue Note or Riverside, but that they are on the same level of playing as a BLUE TRAIN (just to give one example; is there one or two albums of his that he feels have that special something that pushed it into the upper realms of greatness?) or a BRILLIANT CORNERS?

Does he feel that, when critics refer to "standard blowing sessions," they're referring to Prestige in a derogatory manner?

On a note related to the first question: how would he counter the claim that Coltrane did nice work at Prestige, but that it wasn't essential when compared to BLUE TRAIN, his Atlantic work, and his Impulse work? (For the record, I don't buy this notion for a second; but I have seen it expressed elsewhere).

[king ubu]

Are there any Prestige sessions that he feels are overlooked because they weren't on a label like Blue Note or Riverside, but that they are on the same level of playing as a BLUE TRAIN (just to give one example; is there one or two albums of his that he feels have that special something that pushed it into the upper realms of greatness?) or a BRILLIANT CORNERS?

Does he feel that, when critics refer to "standard blowing sessions," they're referring to Prestige in a derogatory manner?

On a note related to the first question: how would he counter the claim that Coltrane did nice work at Prestige, but that it wasn't essential when compared to BLUE TRAIN, his Atlantic work, and his Impulse work? (For the record, I don't buy this notion for a second; but I have seen it expressed elsewhere).

"Brilliant Corners" was a Riverside date!

A Prestige date that might fit what you mean: Sonny Rollins' "Saxophone Colossus". Or the Rollins-led date of the Roach/Brown quintet.

And of course the two Miles quintet "marathon" sessions!

The Trane dates, yes! I love all of them!

You could ask as what he regarded them at the time (1957, "Traneing In", "Settin' the Pace", "Soultrane", "Lush Life" etc.) - as great records by an emerging star, or rather just another one for a musician in need of money (was this before of after Trane kicked his habit? I've got no possibility to look this up being at work), or just another jam session using some "regular staff musicians".

Maybe talk about the Booker Ervin albums? Had he left Prestige then? They were all produced by Don Schlitten. Did Weinstock leave? Sell? (I don't know the history of Prestige at all, forgive me!)

You could ask him about Bob Parent (and later Esmond Edwards and Don Schlitten) doing those marvellous cover photographs (and session photographs - look at the booklet of the Eric Dophy Prestige box, for instance).

ubu

[Dan Gould]

Thanks, Chuck and Big Al (and you too, Ubu, though I really like some of Al's questions!)

[Philip]

Asked by Brownie:

[W]hy are there practically no alternate tracks of some of the great Prestige sessions?

Brownie, Lewis Porter interviewed Bob Weinstock for his Coltrane biography. After an unsatisfactory take the tape was rewound and reused. Weinstock asserts that this was for ethical reasons.

Edited November 21, 2003 by Philip

[montg]

I'll offer it to Cadence Magazine initially, but when I told them who I was interviewing, they pointed out that its somewhat outside their usual scope, which concentrates on musicians, not producers.

FWIW, Richard Cook's Jazz Review features interviews with producers/label owners fairly regularly.

jazzreview@excite.com

[Dan Gould]

Thanks, I did not know that. Guess they'll be number two on the list.

[Brad]

Dan,

Can you ask about his reminisences of some of the major artists of the day whether he worked with them or not. Something like a quick word association game. You give the name of the artist and what's the first thought that you have.

People alluded to his competing with BN but these were independent labels so I'd be curious about his recollections of trying to compete with the big labels and what he had to do to survive and did he and other indies try to coordinate efforts to more effectively compete with the big boys.

BTW, if Cadence or Jazz Review aren't interested, what about AAJ. I'd certainly pay to see a transcript, regardless.

Obviously, a big CONGRATULATIONS!!! is in order.

[Dan Gould]

Brad,

Thanks. AAJ is always a fallback position, though I am almost certain they don't pay anything; they do have the advantage of archiving their material and therefore having a much longer "shelf life" than a monthly print publication. That of course is assuming they don't crash again with no functional backup system.

[Christiern]

• Labels like Prestige, Riverside, and Blue Note could not compete with the majors as far as distribution and promotion was concerned, but Bob was smart to take advantage of them. He recorded artists like Miles and Monk prolifically and either for scale or a relatively low fee. When a company like Columbia signed them up (and this is particularly true in Miles' case), Bob's vaulted tapes became even more valuable--Columbia spent more money on promoting someone like Miles than Prestige ever could afford, so Bob splurged a bit on 4-color covers and went to market in the wake of what essentially was free publicity. I know that's a simplified explanation, but what I am saying is that losing an artist to a company that will give him/her heavy promotion is rather desirable if you have "product" to put out there.
  
  You should ask Bob about that M.O.
  
  BTW, the majors' jazz A&R departments were staffed with people who knew the Weinstocks, Cadenas and Grauers, and shared their interests, so if there was competition, it was friendly.
  
  As for Esmond and Don, both were into photography. Don, as I recall, was also good at doing layouts. It was a lot cheaper to have them snap the cover photos.
  

Don Schlitten produced several albums that were outside of the jazz realm, like Burgess Meredith reading Ray Bradbury, Monologues by Hermione Gingold, and a Billy Dee Williams cabaret album. I was assigned to recording a flamenco album by a group called Los Morenos. I still have no idea why Bob wanted that in the catalog--I don't know much about that idiom, and I knew even less in 1961. I think they were from Brooklyn!

[Dan Gould]

I think it was in the Gryce book that Weinstock spoke of the fact that the label always made money and so he was willing to take risks on people like Gryce. I imagine that the biggest part of that was having those Miles albums in the catalog. I imagine they sold pretty steadily, especially while the Davis Quintet personnel was the same as the Columbia releases, and probably beyond. Same think with Monk.

[Son-of-a-Weizen]

One reason why Bob moved Prestige to Bergenfield NJ from NYC was to make it inconvenient for musicians to hang out at the office in search of an advance. That was almost a daily thing at Riverside.

That's too funny!

[JSngry]

I think it was in the Gryce book that Weinstock spoke of the fact that the label always made money and so he was willing to take risks on people like Gryce.  I imagine that the biggest part of that was having those Miles albums in the catalog.  I imagine they sold pretty steadily, especially while the Davis Quintet personnel was the same as the Columbia releases, and probably beyond.  Same think with Monk.

Yeah, they did, but I bet that Gene Ammons outsold them both, combined, at least at the time. The Miles/Trane Quintet albums were widely staggered in their releases, and I don't think that the last one came out until, when, 1962?

Prestige, remember, had "hits" early on. "Moody's Mood For Love" was a notable one, and I'm pretty sure that Jug was a big seller all through the 1950's, especially by the time that "Canadian Sunset" and "Angel Eyes" hit big. When I say "hit big", I don't mean "Top 40" big, but big in the blue collar African-American community. Those records were HUGE in that demographic. Given the relatively low overhead of the indie jazz label back then, anything that caught on outside of the hardcore jazz community would turn a nice profit, especially if it became a "jukebox hit". I think that companies made (make?) money on jukebox play, but I could be wrong. But I'll tell you this much - Gene Ammons was popular outside of the "jazz connesieur" contingent in a way that few post-Swing Era jazz artists have been.

Edited November 21, 2003 by JSngry