Charles Mingus

[JETman]

Why not get and keep both?

Music that isn't the artists' vision is not necessarily bad. Obviously, things like amount of music allowed on an lp and other factors often entered into editing decisions.

FWIW, these unedited versions are excellent, and do not suffer from the recent decision to expand, rather than remain true to, the original lp.

I generally agree with you.

I have all the expanded and unreleased stuff from those two albums on a Columbia collection called "Nostalgia in Times Square." I certainly like having and hearing the full length stuff.

The thing is, though, that Mingus went into those sessions knowing that he would record more than he would use. The original albums reflected his conception of how they should sound. The expanded "Mingus Ah Um," which I also have, simply doesn't have the same pacing as the original. I'm glad the full length performances are out there, but I feel they should supplement Mingus's original albums rather than replace them, IMHO.

Very well said!

[Christiern]

in that era, a session was for a single album - the idea of spreading it around happened only in the real reissue age, which started some years later.

In that era, strictly speaking, a session (as the union saw it) was no more than 15 minutes of usable material. Ergo, a session was half of a chintzy album—it really took 3 sessions to make an album with reasonable running time. BTW, I produced a two-album session (Lonnie Johnson/Elmer Snowden) for Prestige in 1960; the following year, I produced 2 albums by Billie and Dede Pierce for Riverside.

As for spreading it around, I put together a double LP to introduce Riverside's "New Orleans: The Living Legends" series. With one exception, the material on this intro album did not duplicate what was on the subsequently issued albums. I actually planned it this way when I was doing my session marathon in N.O. I did not think of it as a concept beyond the norm, because it really wasn't. Rare, perhaps, but not rebelliously so.

Edited October 31, 2009 by Christiern

[medjuck]

I'm surprised that Tijuana Moods isn't on more people's top 3 list.

[JSngry]

Changes One goes on my list, although, Top 5....that's not fair parameters, there are more than five.

[WorldB3]

Pithecantropus Erectus

At the Bohemia

Blues and Roots

Tijuana Moods

Town Hall Concert 1964 (the Byard and Dolphy lineup was too good to miss and this is great intro to them)

[AllenLowe]

I recently listened to Tijuana Moods for the first time years - and was very disappointed. It doesn't really hold together that well.

[Guy Berger]

I'd say that Blues & Roots is a must, and you'd probably really enjoy Tijuana Moods (RCA), Jazz Portrait (reissued on Blue Note but discontinued recently) and Mingus Mingus Mingus Mingus Mingus (Impulse).

I would normally recommend The Black Saint and the Sinner Lady (Impulse) as one of the top tier but I seem to recall you don't like avant-garde jazz.

Guy

[AllenLowe]

by the way, fortunately for me, the dictionary contains an interesting extension of the definition for "session" :

"a series or period of such meetings"

[JETman]

by the way, fortunately for me, the dictionary contains an interesting extension of the definition for "session" :

"a series or period of such meetings"

Ok, you win. I apologize for misunderstanding your original post.

[AllenLowe]

don't worry - I'm making this up as I go -

or, as Yogi Berra said, "they shoulda wrote what I meant, not what I said."

Edited October 31, 2009 by AllenLowe

[mikelz777]

Thanks to everyone who's made recommendations thus far. It looks like 7 titles have had more than one mention/recommendation. In descending order:

-Tijuana Moods

-Blues And Roots

-Pithecanthropus Erectus

-A Night At The Bohemia

-East Coasting

-Mingus Presents Mingus

-Black Saint And The Sinner Lady

[AllenLowe]

just to add (or subtract); Eric Dolphy playing Stormy Weather on Mingus Presents Mingus is the most glorious saxophone performance in the history of music. When I was just a wee boy I listened to it over and over and over.

Edited October 31, 2009 by AllenLowe

[mikelz777]

I'd say that Blues & Roots is a must, and you'd probably really enjoy Tijuana Moods (RCA), Jazz Portrait (reissued on Blue Note but discontinued recently) and Mingus Mingus Mingus Mingus Mingus (Impulse).

I would normally recommend The Black Saint and the Sinner Lady (Impulse) as one of the top tier but I seem to recall you don't like avant-garde jazz.

Guy

You're right about that, I haven't developed much of a taste for avant-garde jazz. That's why I'm proceeding with some caution when exploring Mingus a little further. Jackie McLean's 60's Blue Notes are about as deep as I've ventured into avant-garde and those work for me because McLean always seemed to keep at least one foot firmly planted in hard-bop. From the sound samples I've listened to so far, there hasn't yet been anything that has outright turned me off. The sound samples to Pithecanthropus Erectus sound a bit out there but at the same time, there's something there that makes me curious to hear more.

Edited October 31, 2009 by mikelz777

[WorldB3]

I'd say that Blues & Roots is a must, and you'd probably really enjoy Tijuana Moods (RCA), Jazz Portrait (reissued on Blue Note but discontinued recently) and Mingus Mingus Mingus Mingus Mingus (Impulse).

I would normally recommend The Black Saint and the Sinner Lady (Impulse) as one of the top tier but I seem to recall you don't like avant-garde jazz.

Guy

You're right about that, I haven't developed much of a taste for avant-garde jazz. That's why I'm proceeding with some caution when exploring Mingus a little further. Jackie McLean's 60's Blue Notes are about as deep as I've ventured into avant-garde and those work for me because McLean always seemed to keep at least one foot firmly planted in hard-bop. From the sound samples I've listened to so far, there hasn't yet been anything that has outright turned me off. The sound samples to Pithecanthropus Erectus sound a bit out there but at the same time, there's something there that makes me curious to hear more.

If your a Jackie McLean fan, Pithecanthropus Erectus is a must.

[jazzbo]

You shouldn't have much to fear with Mingus becoming too avant-garde for you. He did push boundaries, but not deep into new thing territory. I wouldn't personally think you'd find anything "toxic" for you in "Black Saint and the Sinner Lady," which is quite a recording.

[papsrus]

No love for The Great Concert of Charles Mingus?

Used to have it on iTunes. High on my wish list now. With Dolphy, Clifford Jordon, Jaki Byard. A great, great album, IMHO.

While I don't know a whole lot about Mingus, I agree that Blues and Roots is an excellent album as well.

[Niko]

You shouldn't have much to fear with Mingus becoming too avant-garde for you. He did push boundaries, but not deep into new thing territory. I wouldn't personally think you'd find anything "toxic" for you in "Black Saint and the Sinner Lady," which is quite a recording.

confessions time... mingus sometimes loses me with overlong solos, say, on those live in europe discs...(not free jazz, but a similar "problem") black saint and the sinner lady has little to do with that, i saw sonny criss "sonny's dream" compared to it somewhere (didn't you buy that lately...?) which i found quite convincing, "richly textured" is what you call this type of music iirc... very interesting arrangements, the main soloist is charlie mariano... definitely no free jazz...

[king ubu]

not to be too grumpy, but a search would have led to many similar discussions, most notably here:

http://www.organissimo.org/forum/index.php?showtopic=14098

I'm a huge Mingus fan, so I want it all, but depending if you enjoy freer stuff or not, my favorites would include:

Blues & Roots (and Pithecantropus Erectus, The Clown, Tonight at Noon)

East Coasting

Tijuana Moods (make sure you get the Bluebird First Editions 2CD edition!)

Mingus in Wonderland

Mingus Ah Um (Dynasty is fine, too!)

Mingus Presents Mingus (though there's good stuff on all the other Candid discs as well, and Mingus At Antibes is cool, too!)

and if you like freer stuff, also something from 1964 (Cornell, the two Live In Europe discs on Enja, one of the Paris concerts...)

also Black Saint and the Sinner Lady

and as mentioned above, the piano solo album is marvellous as well

[JSngry]

Let me say it again - Changes One.

Ignore at your peril!

[jazzbo]

"Duke Ellington's Sound of Love." Beautiful.

[Free For All]

[JSngry]

I think that Changes One is the last, indisputably classic "Mingus album". Not even Changes Two, fine as it is, quite measures up. Truthfully, I think that you could take all of One, add the first side of Two, and have a really nice stand-alone suite. If the session would have been done in the CD age, maybe that's what they'd have done.

This was the working band, and they were tight. After that, it was all "projects", some better than others (Cumbia and Jazz Fusion is a strong album, I think), but Changes One is...classic, in every sense of the word. Classic band, classic tunes, classic format, hell, even classic Mingus label.

And while we're discussing potentially overlooked masterpieces, Let My Children Hear Music indeed!

Mingus, like Miles, did not peak before the 70s, so to look at his output through the "popular" lens of Classic = 1950s & 1960s is going to result in some unnecessary oversights.

[felser]

No love for The Great Concert of Charles Mingus?

Plenty of love from me. First Mingus I ever heard (from my college library), and, very shortly thereafter, the first Mingus I ever bought. Also my introduction to Eric Dolphy. So many classics, from the early 50's stuff through the first side of 'Cumbia and Jazz Fusion'. But the proper starting point, the one to own if you can only own one, etc., is 'The Black Saint and the Sinner Lady'. Epic.

[Free For All]

And while we're discussing potentially overlooked masterpieces, Let My Children Hear Music indeed!

And much of the praise for this one should go to Sy Johnson, who orchestrated Mingus' wonderful ideas. Sy Johnson was Mingus' best arranger IMHO.

[Guy Berger]

You shouldn't have much to fear with Mingus becoming too avant-garde for you. He did push boundaries, but not deep into new thing territory. I wouldn't personally think you'd find anything "toxic" for you in "Black Saint and the Sinner Lady," which is quite a recording.

Yeah - just to clarify, Mingus's music is not WAY OUT THERE (except in terms of genius), but at times some of his work (esp with Eric Dolphy) crosses into areas that someone who dislikes a-g jazz might dislike.

Guy