Why is the flute a Cinderella in jazz...

[JSngry]

Here's a Laws album I forgot about...this is the type of thing that tends to make for a lack of ambivalence, if you know what I mean

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=xBlUURBYRng

Me, I enjoy it very much, maybe just for the "principle" of it, but hey... the degree of separation from this and Sketches of Spain is not all that much... or Bitches Brew, for that matter.

Having been steered to classical music via, what the cognoscenti would view as, prog-rock cannibalising of core repertoire, this suits me fine. Yes, it is but a shadow of the original, but it's been turned into an interesting separate piece. And as a lover of 70s electric piano, this hits another button.

I actually prefer it to Sketches - a record I've never great warmed to (apart from the fabulous last two tracks) because it seems to take its source material and just play it straight.

I suppose there's plenty not to like about that Laws version of Rite, but what I do like about it is that everybody involved seemed to be thinking for themselves...never a flaw in and of itself in my book. I mean, yeah, ok, CTI is supposed to be all lush and groovy and earcandy and all that, and this is that soncially, but at the same time it...not really following anybody's formula of how to do a "jazz version of the classics"...and if you listen to some of Laws's licks, the later-Coltrane influence can be heard. It's not like this guy was always playing pretty and clean, I mean, he definitely had something to say besides I'm A Freakin' Virtuoso, if you know what I mean...

I've hung with a few serious "classical" flautists over the years, the kind who are still snobbish about the "proper" way to play the instrument. They were all extremely sensisitve/critical about things like evenness of tone, articulation, intonation, accuracy of fingering/execution, all that stuff, and the only jazz flautists they accorded respect were Dolphy, Laws, Tabackin, and in the case of one guy I knew later on, James Newton. Everybody else they found either lacking or merely "interesting". That means nothing, of course, but still..."doublers" beware!

[seeline]

My supposition would be that the flute has been fairly low in the jazz hierarchy because:

a) Jazz has usually been a fairly muscular, masculine-dominated music - very hard to compete with a flute against an earthy tenor or trumpet pyrotechnics.

b) The whole amplification problem - must have been very hard to hear in the live venues most jazz was played.

Today, however, modern amplification solves b) (and it is a non-issue in the studio) and hope we're past a).

Interesting British flautist - Finn Peters - who has made some nice recordings and appeared ion a variety of contexts.

The World Music influence on jazz should also change things. The flute is far more prevalent in folk musics - the recordings that Hariprasad Chaurasia has made with the likes of McLaughin are pretty breathtaking!

I wanted to say something about the supposedly "feminine" character of the instrument - as viewed by a lot of people in the US, anyway - but decided not to. However I think you're right - which doesn't explain the popularity of wood and metal Boehm-system flutes in much Brazilian and Cuban music.

I guess the more "macho" societies don't have any hangups with that. Musicians from northeastern Brazil (Hermeto Pascoal, for one) have made no secret of their love for it (in all sizes and shapes and musical contexts), and there's a parallel tradition in Rio, wich choro and a lot of popular music.

As for amplification, I dunno: flute can be very cutting and shrill!

Given a choice between panpies and harmonica, the choice for an itinerant musician would be obvious, I'd think.

For one thing, campfire gigs would be a helluva lot easier to come by.

But quills sound very cool - nothing like Zamfir!

here are some examples, by Big Boy Cleveland and Henry Thomas: http://spinninginair.blogspot.com/2008/01/quill.html

Edited May 29, 2010 by seeline

[JSngry]

You ain't workin' no campfire gigs with that thing!

And yeah, ain't no macho hangups here!

But check out that axe - most decidedly not metal!

Las pollitas prefieren la madera!

[seeline]

You're right that the typical flute in charangas was wooden, until very recently.

Here's a West African flutist (likely from Guinea, Mali or Senegal) for ya -

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=azSm1aGAFhg

Side note: the drums on the far right are Senegalese (near right are Mali and/or Guinea-ish), so that's what I'm banking on, but it's anyone's guess!

Edited May 29, 2010 by seeline

[seeline]

Here's another gent, Bassirou Sanou, playing the tambin (from the Fulani aka Peul people, W. Africa) -

(I have no idea why the video says "flute mandingue," because it comes from the Fulani.)

Edited May 29, 2010 by seeline

[seeline]

I *love* this guy - Boubacar Jallow (Diallo) -

[seeline]

Looks like there's a ton of nice charanga stuff on the Tube.

I pulled this one because it's actually titled "Trompeta y Flauta." NYC's own Orquesta Broadway!

Edited May 29, 2010 by seeline

[AllenLowe]

only jazz flute players I ever liked were Eric Dolphy and Charlie Haines (a great musician from Connecticut whom I have not seen for many years) - all the rest just annoy me.

[clifford_thornton]

I really like jazz flute.

Very few others do, and it's a source of continual teasing in my experience. "There you go with that funky flute crap again, Clifford."

[Teasing the Korean]

Yes, the thread did start out more about why the flute is so rare as a primary instrument.

As I attempted to address in my post, I don't think it's a rare instrument in jazz at all, at least not in my collection. I'd never even thought about this topic until reading your initial post.

Then again, I remember Gary Burton saying something along the lines of the vibes being an "unusual" instrument. Not in my collection. Every album I own has vibes!

I have a Fajardo LP with a giant tiki on the cover. I can't remember if I liked the record, but damn it's a cool cover!

[Dave James]

I'm just going to cut to the chase, and this is strictly my opinion. The flute sounds wimpy. Not fife or piccolo wimpy but wimpy nonetheless.

[seeline]

I really like jazz flute.

Very few others do, and it's a source of continual teasing in my experience. "There you go with that funky flute crap again, Clifford."

I've never understood the prejudices against flute, myself. But it's *not* an easy instrument to learn/play, and that might be part of it...

[A Lark Ascending]

Maybe a fair few saxophonists started out on flute at school. It might bring back bad memories!

Or clarinet! (also quite rare these days, compared with the main front line instruments)

[A Lark Ascending]

Then again, I remember Gary Burton saying something along the lines of the vibes being an "unusual" instrument. Not in my collection. Every album I own has vibes!

Vibes had a towering figure, and thus a role model, pretty early on - Lionel Hampton. I can't think of any of the flautists (as in primary instrument) mentioned so far who come close to his popularity.

[mikeweil]

The first jazz concert I attended was Mongo Santamaria, 1967. Hubert Laws on flute was the standout!

There is a live LP on Columbia of that band where Laws plays a long solo on Afro Blue on piccolo - unbelieveable stuff! Laws tried - well he still plays that way - to be expressive through his choice of tone and melody, not by changing the tone, like Steig on the other extreme end of the scale did. It's a reasonable choice if you go for a clean intonation. 

So far Herbie Mann hasn't been mentioned - if there was somebody popularizing the flute in jazz, it was him. There are quite a few nice jazz albums from all stages of his career. 

[Bright Moments]

don't forget sam most

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

So far Herbie Mann hasn't been mentioned - if there was somebody popularizing the flute in jazz, it was him. There are quite a few nice jazz albums from all stages of his career. 

Quite right - but Bill mentioned him - rather quickly

Herbie Mann, Jeremy Steig - can't think of any other first instrument jazz flautists. Next I think of Roland Kirk, who revolutionised its sound.

But I think Mann did himself in as an influence on flute players generally, through tending to focus on Soul Jazz. 'Course, I like it

MG

[Cyril]

don't forget sam most

Stefano Benini & Sam Most (2 flute players)

[kenny weir]

I always though the lowly status of lute in jazz was down to ... with the saxes (and their "bendable reeds), and also the horns, it was/is much easier to slide around the notes, make "blue notes" and so on. Whereas with flutes, one was/is left pretty much with timing and phrasing.

I'm a flute fan when it comes to some of the more slinky dance-oriented jazz and good ol' hippie rock.

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

I always though the lowly status of lute in jazz was down to ... with the saxes (and their "bendable reeds), and also the horns, it was/is much easier to slide around the notes, make "blue notes" and so on. Whereas with flutes, one was/is left pretty much with timing and phrasing.

But there's a range of odd breathy sounds that flute players make - Rahsaan was particularly great at this, but quite a lot of African flute players do it, too - which stand for "blue notes", or have a similar function within the music.

MG

[Chuck Nessa]

I thought that sound was missing the hole.

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

I thought that sound was missing the hole.

Dunno 'baht technical stuff, Guv.

MG

[A Lark Ascending]

I always though the lowly status of lute in jazz was down to ...

I don't think the lute caught on in jazz because the costumes you have to wear don't fit the image of the jazz hipster!

Must be a devil to keep tuned in a sweaty jazz club too.

Edited May 31, 2010 by Bev Stapleton

[AllenLowe]

now the flutophone, THAT's an instrument:

[Teasing the Korean]

Then again, I remember Gary Burton saying something along the lines of the vibes being an "unusual" instrument. Not in my collection. Every album I own has vibes!

Vibes had a towering figure, and thus a role model, pretty early on - Lionel Hampton. I can't think of any of the flautists (as in primary instrument) mentioned so far who come close to his popularity.

Maybe not, but I was simply making the comparison because neither the flute nor the vibraphone is underrepresented in my collection. Maybe it's all what you buy or are drawn to. I never would have thought to ask the question.

Edited May 31, 2010 by Teasing the Korean