Why do BN CDs go OOP?

[Chrome]

I'm no tech expert, but once a company has done whatever they do to create a CD, in terms of "digitalizing" the music, don't they just have this data on a computer somewhere? Or on some kind of master disc?

Considering how easy it is to burn a CD, I'm surprised the "larger" companies like BN won't just burn discs individually to fill individual orders. I would think they could easily get away with charging a premium high enough to cover the cost of burning but low enough to still get people to buy. After all, people certainly pay premiums now for discs that are OOP.

[Dan Gould]

I think you answered your question with your description of BN as a "Larger" company: Large companies don't innovate very often and adopt so quickly to new selling systems, plus larger companies are likely to institute tighter controls on inventory costs and therefore require certain minimum sales which, if not met, lead to deletions.

Maybe in that wonderful digital future I keep hearing about ....

[couw]

CDs go OOP because storage costs money.

Besides the music, poeple will expect to get art work and will measure it all against certain standards. A CDr is not a CD. A Xerox copy or print-out is not an original offset print on glossy paper. Modern techinques sure do allow to bring out high quality stuff on a request basis, but the infrastructure will need to be installed. And as Dan pointed out: old & large horses are not that easy to move.

Furthermore I think for a company moving towards a copy-protect system, selling CDr copies themselves may be viewed as oxymoronic.

[Rooster_Ties]

CDs go OOP because storage costs money.

By the way, this refers to the physical storage of already manufactured CD's.

As I understand it, the corporate parent company charges back Blue Note for storage "costs" for titles that have already been manufactured. "Blue Note" is just considered a different "cost center" to the parent company, and they apportion their storage costs to every cost center. So, if a title isn't selling sufficient numbers, then those ongoing storage costs have to be considered an "expense" from the perspective of Blue Note (even if the storage facilities are long since paid for, and are actually owned by the parent company – meaning they probably aren't actually leasing the storage space, but they are "charging" their subsidiaries as if the storage space is leased).

I think this is why the whole Fantasy (OJC) catalog mostly stays in print for so long (except for their "limited edition" titles), since Fantasy owns their own storage facilities, and don't choose to record "losses" (expenses) for the storage of slow-moving titles.

[scottb]

Could someone let Blue Note that I would be glad to "store" some discs at my place.

[connoisseur series500]

Could someone let Blue Note that I would be glad to "store" some discs at my place.

Okay Scott,

On the way to you via special delivery: 5,000 copies of Norah Jones!!

[Brad]

Sounds like Rooster is a finance guy. I work at a big corporation and divisions and subsidiaries get charged for everything so if there's a low income product that is taking up manufacturing space that could be otherwise used for a high income product, corporations will try to get rid of that product or outsource it to a third party manufacturer. What's happening with Blue Note's parent is no different than what happens in most corporations, regardless of industry.

[Morganized]

With modern forms of just in time inventory controls, I suspect it has more to do with the marketing of the product than it does the distribution. That said, I am sure there has to be some minimum below which it is not cost effective to manufacture. Don't know if that is 100, 1000, or 10000.

Maybe Chuck could enlighten us all!

[Chrome]

I appreciate the responses ... regarding the costs, I guess I just thought that that would be pretty low, because they wouldn't have to store CDs, just the digital files, which I'm sure they store even if a disc itself is out of print.

The artwork stuff I would think would be a lesser problem in this sense: If people had a chance to get some disc they were just dying for, they would be happier getting the music and perhaps low-res art then not being able to have anything at all because it's out of print. It's the music that matters, right?

That's why I think that listeners would pay a premium for these kind of CDs that would otherwise go OOP, to help a company still make a profit.

Or maybe the art/liner notes are digital files, too, that people could download on their own?

I hear what's been said though about how BN fits into some big corporate structure that would prevent innovation, etc. I keep repressing that kind of thing and imagining BN as an independent still!

I guess I'm just pretty pissed that I got into jazz so "late" that stuff I want is already out of print.

Edited December 11, 2003 by Chrome

[couw]

Or maybe the art/liner notes are digital files, too, that people could download on their own?

the problem with digital distribution is that it is way more sensitive to piracy.

[JSngry]

Don't worry. What goes around comes around, usually.

[chris]

The music is ultimately the most important, and given the choice of something or nothing, I would take the "something." But I am also a collector, so I want the "right" cover art, professionally printed, a pressed and lacquered CD, not a CD-R, etc...

In a way, the fact that things can go OOP supports the collectors and makes things more fun. Otherwise it's just a matter of money and more money...

[bertrand]

Apparently, inventory is no longer deductible under a tax law change (my guess is the Tax Reform Act of 1986) and this may have a lot to do with it.

Here's a proposal that makes too much sense to be adopted by any company: what if they jacked up the price by $1 every year for any CD that has had to be stored for over a year? I'de be gald to pay the difference, rather than go on e-bay.

Bertrand.

[BruceH]

I will gladly volunteer to be a regional storage facility for old BN titles. My rates are very reasonable!

[BruceH]

Maybe in that wonderful digital future I keep hearing about ....

Is that like the "paperless office" we've also been hearing so much about for so long?

[Jazzmoose]

I guess I'm just pretty pissed that I got into jazz so "late" that stuff I want is already out of print.

Don't worry about it. As Jim says, it'll be back. There's so much jazz out there to hear that chasing after OOP discs is really sort of a sucker's game (apologies to all; I do it too, but still feel that way). If you can't find enough to listen to with in print CDs, my guess is that you need to "expand your horizons" a bit. Try something new! Then, a few years down the road, when the ones you missed the first time are being reissued and you can pick them up, you'll see a post from someone complaining because they can't find Lee Morgan's Sonic Boom, and you can smile to yourself and remember when...

[robviti]

the other answer to this question is this: not enough people are buying the titles that go out of print. i'm not sure what the cutoff point is these days, but i think it used to be 300 units per year. that's an awfully low number when you consider that we're talking about total annual sales. i don't know about you, but it makes me think twice about buying promos or used copies of titles that are still in print.

[Indestructible!]

Hi All,

If memory serves, I think Tom Evered at Blue Note mentioned that a sales figure of 500 units per year needs to be met in order for a CD to be kept in print. I don't know if that's currently the case (or if it indeed ever was actually the case), but either way that number seems depressingly low to me.

However, there's always the odd chance things will be reissued (often more than once). For example, Lee Morgan's - The Sixth Sense went OOP very quickly upon its initial release... but I notice it is included in the list of upcoming RVG's this year.

But still.... some titles don't even make that "500 units a year" target! Assuming that target applies only to the US market (and I'm not sure that it does), this means that a little less than 1.5 CD's of a title (e.g., Sonny Clark's - Standards) needs to be sold per day in the entire US to keep it in print! And that's not happening??? Damn!

No wonder Jim can't afford a razor for that beard!

Cheers,

Shane

[Tjazz]

I guess I'm just pretty pissed that I got into jazz so "late" that stuff I want is already out of print.

Don't worry about it. As Jim says, it'll be back. There's so much jazz out there to hear that chasing after OOP discs is really sort of a sucker's game (apologies to all; I do it too, but still feel that way). If you can't find enough to listen to with in print CDs, my guess is that you need to "expand your horizons" a bit. Try something new! Then, a few years down the road, when the ones you missed the first time are being reissued and you can pick them up, you'll see a post from someone complaining because they can't find Lee Morgan's Sonic Boom, and you can smile to yourself and remember when...

It all depends how many years you have left (to live).

If you can wait 10-15 years, most CDs will be re-issued.

[scottb]

I asked this question once before and no one really had an answer but...

Does anyone know how many Conns have gone out of print secondary to poor sales vs reaching to series' limit?

I would be curious to see a list of the titles fitting each category.

Edited December 17, 2003 by scottb

[David Ayers]

We used to be told that Conns were a single print run deal. I don't know if that was or is true. It is evident that some were remaindered becasue cut-outs exist, though they are rare.