Tim Berne - Snakeoil

[.:.impossible]

Berne was supposed to play with Ombak down in Richmond last winter, but had to cancel last minute due to a death in the family. Ray Anderson filled in at moment's notice.

From all accounts a great guy. I'm definitely a fan of his music and his label.

[BFrank]

They're going to be at Yoshi's at the end of the month. Thought I might check them out.

[Guy Berger]

I saw Oscar as part of a Motian group in 2011 - an interesting lineup with Bill McHenry, Russ Lossing, and Eivind Opsik. I liked his playing. WIll check this one out.

[mjazzg]

some interesting Berne (and others) on this

http://marchannaford.bandcamp.com/album/ordinary-madness

[Alexander Hawkins]

Arrived. Slightly soft-grained mix (ahem). Slightly contemplative beginning (ahem). Some very interesting passagework (phew).

[jeffcrom]

I listened to Snakeoil yesterday and today, and I think it's excellent music. Berne's compositions always go somewhere. When a melody returns, it's never just restated - the instrumentation or texture or tempo or feel is altered, so that the "recap" is fresh. I wondered about the lack of bass, but the piano writing, and/or Matt Mitchell's realization of it, is so good that the bass isn't missed. Coupla thumbs up from me.

And has anyone else noticed that the very "ECM-ish" cover photograph is by Berne himself?

[CraigP]

And has anyone else noticed that the very "ECM-ish" cover photograph is by Berne himself?

I missed that, interesting. I didn't know he did any photography. But ECM probably MADE him take the photo in that way.

[mjazzg]

in depth interview with Berne discussing creation of Snakeoil etc

http://thejazzsession.com/2012/02/07/the-jazz-session-344-tim-berne/

(for those whodare - go to 30min mark for his opinions of recording for ECM including 'the sound', no mention of enforced photography though )

[JETman]

Just listened to this. Great record -- one of his best in awhile. I will say, though, that although I'm not a big believer in the scuttlebut that the ECM sound is enforced, the acoustic piano on this album is recorded in such a way so as to give the music more of an ECM feel.

[Leeway]

Arrived. Slightly soft-grained mix (ahem). Slightly contemplative beginning (ahem). Some very interesting passagework (phew).

Are you trying to feed the flames???

Yes. Some great music on this disk though - much of it is about collective counterpoint, sometimes with the sax in a rhythm role. Long and hypnotic melodies.

Given the direction the other thread took (and your complaints about it), I have to say that I'm flabbergasted that this would be your desire.

I've been a huge fan of Berne's for years. I have probably about 99% of the discs he appears on. I have no doubt that the music contained on this upcoming disc will hold at least some interest for me. That being said, I almost always have to be in the "right" mood to listen to his stuff.

No I was teasing. I am on the second time through now. It's a fantastic disc in terms of the group counterpoint, the whole group feeling, a real labour of love. All really well played-in. I should think he's delighted with it.

Glad to hear it!

I've spoken to Tim on the phone (to place orders for his Screwgun discs --- he lives local to me in Brooklyn), and believe me --- he's never delighted about anything

I know what you mean! I've had several chats with him in the past, and then again there were times I steered clear. I'm supposed to see Berne Sunday at Bohemian Caverns. If he looks reasonably mellow (doubtful), I might try to sneak a question on this whole ECM thing. A prickly chap but I like him anyway.

[mjazzg]

Arrived. Slightly soft-grained mix (ahem). Slightly contemplative beginning (ahem). Some very interesting passagework (phew).

Are you trying to feed the flames???

Yes. Some great music on this disk though - much of it is about collective counterpoint, sometimes with the sax in a rhythm role. Long and hypnotic melodies.

Given the direction the other thread took (and your complaints about it), I have to say that I'm flabbergasted that this would be your desire.

I've been a huge fan of Berne's for years. I have probably about 99% of the discs he appears on. I have no doubt that the music contained on this upcoming disc will hold at least some interest for me. That being said, I almost always have to be in the "right" mood to listen to his stuff.

No I was teasing. I am on the second time through now. It's a fantastic disc in terms of the group counterpoint, the whole group feeling, a real labour of love. All really well played-in. I should think he's delighted with it.

Glad to hear it!

I've spoken to Tim on the phone (to place orders for his Screwgun discs --- he lives local to me in Brooklyn), and believe me --- he's never delighted about anything

I know what you mean! I've had several chats with him in the past, and then again there were times I steered clear. I'm supposed to see Berne Sunday at Bohemian Caverns. If he looks reasonably mellow (doubtful), I might try to sneak a question on this whole ECM thing. A prickly chap but I like him anyway.

Leeway, he speaks at length about 'the ECM thing' in the Jason Crane interview I've posted earlier 2/14. Interesting how he describes the album's compositions and arrangements being directly influenced by the opportunity to record for a label that takes such care over production etc. It's an interesting listen if you can spare the time.

And as the thread starter I'm pleased to have finally purchased the album and I'm thoroughly enjoyin the first listen - great to hear TB in a different setting

[Leeway]

Ooops, sorry mjazzg, I missed that. I'll catch it later. I'm leaving for the show shortly. Will report back.

[mjazzg]

Ooops, sorry mjazzg, I missed that. I'll catch it later. I'm leaving for the show shortly. Will report back.

no apology needed whatsover. Enjoy the show, i'm counting down to the London gigs

[Leeway]

Just back from the Tim Berne concert. First set packed. The band was very good, obviously working hard to make a good impression on the crowd. The second set, with a slightly smaller crowd, was simply outstanding. The band was looser and more open. They sounded great. First time I've seen Oscar Noriega; interesting tone on clarinet, rather dulcet really, and somewhat the same on bass clarinet too. Oscar makes a nice matchup with Tim. Ches Smith reminded me of a young Tom Rainey, and Matt Mitchell on piano was excellent. The band can hit hard, so it will be interesting to listen to the Snakeoil CD and see if ECM took the edge off the band.

[clifford_thornton]

The record has really grown on me. Can't wait to see the Friday gig in Austin.

[Leeway]

OK, as I mentioned above, I took in both sets of Snakeoil on Sunday night (forgot to mention, they did a splendid encore after the 2nd set-- things were that good).

Today I listened to the CD. There is no doubt the music was "ECM-ed." There is a sort of acoustic glaze over it all. Weirdly, it sounds as if the higher sounds were rolled off. As much as possible the music is made to sound like that Scandinavian-Arcti-ECM music that we all know. Not until the 2nd half of the disc does the band's character become more apparent. But nothing on the disc approaches the band I saw Sunday night. I know there is often a difference between live performance and studio music, but this was a good opportunity to see how ECM alters not just the sound but the musical values of the music they record. It's rather pernicious really. If this was a Screwgun release, it would sound vastly different--and much better.

[mjazzg]

OK, as I mentioned above, I took in both sets of Snakeoil on Sunday night (forgot to mention, they did a splendid encore after the 2nd set-- things were that good).

Today I listened to the CD. There is no doubt the music was "ECM-ed." There is a sort of acoustic glaze over it all. Weirdly, it sounds as if the higher sounds were rolled off. As much as possible the music is made to sound like that Scandinavian-Arcti-ECM music that we all know. Not until the 2nd half of the disc does the band's character become more apparent. But nothing on the disc approaches the band I saw Sunday night. I know there is often a difference between live performance and studio music, but this was a good opportunity to see how ECM alters not just the sound but the musical values of the music they record. It's rather pernicious really. If this was a Screwgun release, it would sound vastly different--and much better.

Firstly, thanks for the insightful reviews, Leeway. I'm glad the gig was a good one and it whets my appetite.

I find it very interesting to read this comparison between the live and studio experience especially as I'm having to await the live version. I really don't want to start the ECM 'good v. evil' debate again but having heard Berne talk about the opportunity to record this music in this way precisely because it is on ECM I can't quite agree with 'pernicious' which my dictionary defines as 'destructive or ruinous'. I believe that he's quite clear (In the Jason Crane interview) that he chose the music to sound as it does as a predetermined artistic decision because of the options that ECM afforded him. In fact he goes as far as to say that it doesn't sound like it would on screwgun precisely because he can't afford to prepare and record such a release on his own label. He's very complimentary about Eicher's influence too.

Now, of course, none of this does nor should undermine your response to the recorded artefact - that's 'different ears, different views' as it always should be. And just because TB likes the end result doesn't mean any of us listeners should. I just hope I'm not disappointed in the live version because it's not ECM enough

Edited February 20, 2012 by mjazzg

[Leeway]

OK, as I mentioned above, I took in both sets of Snakeoil on Sunday night (forgot to mention, they did a splendid encore after the 2nd set-- things were that good).

Today I listened to the CD. There is no doubt the music was "ECM-ed." There is a sort of acoustic glaze over it all. Weirdly, it sounds as if the higher sounds were rolled off. As much as possible the music is made to sound like that Scandinavian-Arcti-ECM music that we all know. Not until the 2nd half of the disc does the band's character become more apparent. But nothing on the disc approaches the band I saw Sunday night. I know there is often a difference between live performance and studio music, but this was a good opportunity to see how ECM alters not just the sound but the musical values of the music they record. It's rather pernicious really. If this was a Screwgun release, it would sound vastly different--and much better.

Firstly, thanks for the insightful reviews, Leeway. I'm glad the gig was a good one and it whets my appetite.

I find it very interesting to read this comparison between the live and studio experience especially as I'm having to await the live version. I really don't want to start the ECM 'good v. evil' debate again but having heard Berne talk about the opportunity to record this music in this way precisely because it is on ECM I can't quite agree with 'pernicious' which my dictionary defines as 'destructive or ruinous'. I believe that he's quite clear (In the Jason Crane interview) that he chose the music to sound as it does as a predetermined artistic decision because of the options that ECM afforded him. In fact he goes as far as to say that it doesn't sound like it would on screwgun precisely because he can't afford to prepare and record such a release on his own label. He's very complimentary about Eicher's influence too.

Now, of course, none of this does nor should undermine your response to the recorded artefact - that's 'different ears, different views' as it always should be. And just because TB likes the end result doesn't mean any of us listeners should. I just hope I'm not disappointed in the live version because it's not ECM enough

I have to say I think Tim is rationalizing. Maybe he's tired of scrabbling, and happy to grab the big paycheck that ECM, promises (and likely delivers). Good for him. But I've always admired his fierce independence, and I see this as a concession on his part. There is some great music on Screwgun; nothing at all wrong with it. "Snakeoil" is a good album, but one can quite easily tell that it has been produced with goals in mind that are extraneous to the music itself, indeed tend to distort the music. For those reasons, I think "pernicious" is an allowable word here. It will be too bad if more of Tim's music becomes homogenized by ECM. If Tim starts playing like an ECM recording, he's finished.

[jlhoots]

So - off topic I suppose, but how does Taborn's Avenging Angel (which I haven't heard) fit into this discussion??

[CraigP]

Avenging Angel is Taborn stripping his sound down to its essence. It's a great record, but it is different from any other recording I've heard of his. I don't see it (or hear it) as a concession, but a chance to present a different facet of his art.

[GA Russell]

I am enjoying Snakeoil. I thought I would miss the bass, but I don't.

[Adam]

The played at the Blue Whale in Los Angeles last night. I got there late, and there was a line to get in to the at-capacity venue. I didn't stick it out, so didn't see them live. Bu it was reassuring to see such a turnout.

[StarThrower]

I am enjoying Snakeoil. I thought I would miss the bass, but I don't.

Speaking of no bass. Has Berne ever talked about the reason he doesn't use a bass player?

His music is pretty busy.

[AllenLowe]

he used to do a lot of things with Mark Dresser.

[JETman]

I am enjoying Snakeoil. I thought I would miss the bass, but I don't.

Speaking of no bass. Has Berne ever talked about the reason he doesn't use a bass player?

His music is pretty busy.

Doesn't Noriega cover the low end in this band?