RVGs - March 09, 2004

[DrJ]

Nothin' personal, Morganized, but I personally feel it's time to put to rest this canard about the RVG's just having "the recording level set higher."

Correct me if I'm wrong but this issue of playback volume would make ZERO difference in sonics even to the audio challenged.

Basically, you compensate by adjusting your volume knob - if the CD is louder, you automatically turn it down, if it's quiet, you turn it up. At least that's what I do...try it some time and once you have your old copy and your RVG both adjusted to comparable volume levels, THEN do your A/B test. It's really that simple. If you do that and still can't hear any difference then I'm thinking either your system is pretty bad, or there's tin ears at play, or both. Notice I didn't say "if you don't hear the RVG as better..." because I realize it's a personal taste thing and not everyone likes the sound of the RVGs. But they are most assuredly different in their sonic thumbprint, WAY beyond just "being louder."

I find it odd that with so many people who obviously know their audio on the board this ridiculous piece of folklore keeps coming up, like Blue Note and Rudy are trying to slip one by all of us. Don't think so.

[Jazzmoose]

(insert applause for Dr. J here...)

[Morganized]

Nothin' personal, Morganized, but I personally feel it's time to put to rest this canard about the RVG's just having "the recording level set higher."

Correct me if I'm wrong but this issue of playback volume would make ZERO difference in sonics even to the audio challenged.

Basically, you compensate by adjusting your volume knob - if the CD is louder, you automatically turn it down, if it's quiet, you turn it up. At least that's what I do...try it some time and once you have your old copy and your RVG both adjusted to comparable volume levels, THEN do your A/B test. It's really that simple. If you do that and still can't hear any difference then I'm thinking either your system is pretty bad, or there's tin ears at play, or both. Notice I didn't say "if you don't hear the RVG as better..." because I realize it's a personal taste thing and not everyone likes the sound of the RVGs. But they are most assuredly different in their sonic thumbprint, WAY beyond just "being louder."

I find it odd that with so many people who obviously know their audio on the board this ridiculous piece of folklore keeps coming up, like Blue Note and Rudy are trying to slip one by all of us. Don't think so.

Posted: Mar 13 2004, 05:02 PM  

QUOTE (BFrank @ Mar 13 2004, 12:31 AM)

Anyone compare the sound of "Free Form" to the earlier CD release? Is it worth getting the "upgrade"?

They both have the same tunes, BTW. 

QUOTE 

I have the McLean McMaster but no RVG yet. Anyone compared? 

OK Guys(m/f),

Enquiring minds want to know. What is the scoop? Has the RVG really improved the sound or is the recording level just set higher?

Geez Dr. J,

Certainly didn't mean to pull ANYONE's chain on this one! I think my original question presupposes the fact that sometimes the RVG's sound significantly better(and sometimes they don't!) But since you brought it up.......I think the answer to the "canard" is found in the word "just". Clearly, the recording levels on the RVG's are set higher. Unarguably so. Therefore the only question would appear to be, "Is this the only SIGNIFICANT difference on the session in question".

Also, it is generally acknowledged that all things being equal, the copy played at the louder volume will sound better, at least at first, to most people.

Thus, to the extent that this keeps "coming up" it is probably due to what many folks might consider healthy skepticism at play here, rather than " tin ears". You are correct in how you would properly A/B the the two versions, making sure the volume level is the same BEFORE doing the comparison. Maybe adjusting line levels is an easy task on your system, I don't know. I do know that if you are having to do any volume adjusting during the blind testing, you are doomed from the start.

That said, I picked up my copies of the RVG's today. And yes, I now have duplicates of a couple of these sessions. For what it is worth I guess I can do my own A/B test and determine for myself which one I prefer.....Tin Ears and all!!

Edited March 14, 2004 by Morganized

[Man with the Golden Arm]

From one tin ear...Let us know what you think. I've only a handful of RVGs but have felt that the last couple I have purchased in the domestics seems to have leveled off on the leveling. True?

Can someone set me straight on the folklore of better recordings being mastered at lower levels to allow the subtle nuances within to be revealed with a better system. I found the first batch RVG of "Moanin'", for example, to be so hot as to distort itself madly on my wee wittle system where the TOCJ of this title always asks for more.

[BruceH]

OK Guys(m/f),

Enquiring minds want to know. What is the scoop? Has the RVG really improved the sound or is the recording level just set higher?

Well, Ready For Freddie sounds better than my earlier copy...but then, my earlier copy was a CDr sent by a kind member of this board, so that may not be saying anything. Personally, I think for the last year-and-a-half to two years they've been doing a good job on the domestic RVG's, on the whole.

[DrJ]

Geez Dr. J,

Certainly didn't mean to pull ANYONE's chain on this one!

Morganized - I may not have been clear enough here, hopefully I haven't offended you.

Actually, if you'll note I started my post with the clear phrase "Nothing personal..." precisely because my words were not directed specifically at you. Rather, I felt you were bringing up a topic that has been discussed here before, often by people who have an axe to grind with the whole RVG series. I didn't think you were doing that.

I guess I feel a bit differently than you do - you feel that people often presuppose the RVGs are superior. In my view there are many more people around here who seem eager to slam the US RVG series (particularly the TOCJ crowd), more than those who defend it.

Really though I personally don't care - people should listen to what they want to, regardless of series. I just rankle when in the past folks have tried to claim the only thing added by the RVG's is loudness. Again, my tin ear comment was meant in that vein, NOT directed at you personally. It was also mostly in jest, although I could see how people might take offense. I do believe though that some people are much more capable of hearing subtle things in audio than others, and sometimes those who can't nay say the abilities of others.

Anyway, so sorry if my post came off as being directed at you or overly harsh - no harm or foul, I hope! I enjoy your posts.

[Morganized]

Geez Dr. J,

Certainly didn't mean to pull ANYONE's chain on this one!

Morganized - I may not have been clear enough here, hopefully I haven't offended you.

Actually, if you'll note I started my post with the clear phrase "Nothing personal..." precisely because my words were not directed specifically at you. Rather, I felt you were bringing up a topic that has been discussed here before, often by people who have an axe to grind with the whole RVG series. I didn't think you were doing that.

I guess I feel a bit differently than you do - you feel that people often presuppose the RVGs are superior. In my view there are many more people around here who seem eager to slam the US RVG series (particularly the TOCJ crowd), more than those who defend it.

Really though I personally don't care - people should listen to what they want to, regardless of series. I just rankle when in the past folks have tried to claim the only thing added by the RVG's is loudness. Again, my tin ear comment was meant in that vein, NOT directed at you personally. It was also mostly in jest, although I could see how people might take offense. I do believe though that some people are much more capable of hearing subtle things in audio than others, and sometimes those who can't nay say the abilities of others.

Anyway, so sorry if my post came off as being directed at you or overly harsh - no harm or foul, I hope! I enjoy your posts.

Dr. J,

Thanks for the post. I do understand how folks can become sensitive to certain topics around here. It was just such a shock to read your post, I guess. I meant my comment as harmless and I was certainly not expecting the response that I received. That said, I should also say that one of the things I really enjoy about the board is the passion which my fellow board members share for this music, the people who create it, and the folks who enjoy listening to it. I love a spirited debate and I believe this board is big enough for the varied viewpoints that we share here.

I thank you for your post. I think it shows real class. Don't let my comments deter your enthusiasm for whatever you want to say. I enjoy your posts, as well, and look forward to reading them in the future. Hopefully someone else will be on the receiving end next time!

It would, however, appear that others may share my concerns:

A little loud?

Sorry but this is just too coincidental for words!!!

I can honestly say that I will remember you next time I have to turn down the volume on my RVG! ( )

Take care.

Edited March 15, 2004 by Morganized

[skeith]

I think what Morganized is trying to say is that there is no question that the RVGs are set at a louder volume and I think that in general louder sounds better on most systems and that it is very hard to make a fair comparison between versions unless you have some device that is able to exactly match the volume level. I don't have such a device and find it difficult.

That said, I have compared the Sweet Honey Bee RVG to my earlier version and I prefer by a tad the RVG. It is not a radical difference but somewhat better.

[Kevin Bresnahan]

Louder can be bad.

Check out: The Death of Dynamic Range (which sadly has stripped the illuminating graphics)

as well as the discussion here:

CUbase.net - Pay particular attention to the post from Studio22. I don't think I've ever seen the problems summarized so well.

FWIW, I have loaded several tunes from RVGs as well as current Ron McMaster CDs into a waveform analyzer and they don't appear to be heavily clipped. However, RVG may be playing the EQ game to allow him to pump of the level.

[RDK]

Louder can be *very bad* in this age of "loudness is everything" remastering. In short - I'll post some links later if you want - by mastering a CD "louder" one has to raise the levels across the spectrum, and if done too agressively this will squash the dynamic range of a recording. This is still, of course, largely subjective - some may like the dynamic range squashed, some may think it sounds more like an original LP - but others do not. The industry has many reasons for doing this, among them so that CDs sound better on boom boxes than on quality audio systems. And a lot of people *think* louder=better, which simply isn't the case. It's not as simple as just turning up or down your amp...

[skeith]

RDK and Kevin

I'm sure you guys know more about this than I do and you raise some interesting points about dynamic range, etc. All I am trying to say, though not very well, is that I notice that my stereo sounds better with the volume dial turned up about halfway than it does turned up to only about a quarter of the way. When the system is turned halfway up it sounds much better: it's not just a volume issue, I get more soundstage, more space between the instruments, more fidelity, etc. than when it is turned down. So in that sense, it appears to me that louder to some extent is better. My sense was that maybe RVG by setting the volume higher on the recordings was getting some effect like this.

[DrJ]

RDK - this argument about squashing the dynamic range sounds fine in theory but I honestly think it's more of a theoretical issue - a pet topic of debate for obsessed audiophiles (and hey, I'm talking about it here, so count me among those rolls I guess... ) but one that doesn't hold water in reality.

What you're talking about - distracting loss of dynamic range - would only occur if there was EXTREME equalization going on, so that the specific parts of the sonic spectrum that were quiet to begin with were heavily boosted while others that were louder were being drastically turned down, in order to "flatten" or compress the signal so that it's essentially approaching a flat line. If that happened, then sure, what you're saying is true. That's selective adjustment of volume.

It could also happen if the overall CD signal was so "hot" that it was approaching distortion levels, I suppose.

What I'm trying to say is that it is clear to my ears that neither of these things is going on. While it's possible that Rudy may be using some compression on the RVGs - it remains a matter of debate but probably he does at least on some - he uses it FAR more judiciously than what you're implying. You can just hear it - not everything sounds like it's at the same volume, NO MATTER where you have your volume knob set on the stereo. There's plenty of dynamic range, even if you're listening at a louder volume and certainly if you adjust to a comfortable listening volume.

So basically, I hold fast - given that your stereo volume knob doesn't selectively adjust different parts of the spectrum, you can just turn down the volume knob when you're listening to RVGs if you feel they're too loud, and turn up older CDs (which in my experience tended to be recorded much more quietly). When I do this in A/B tests, I find two things - one, that often there is NOT as much difference between the old and new versions as you initially thought - in other words, what skeith says is clearly true unless maybe you have an ultra-audiophile, mega-buck listening system that can reproduce the full dynamic range with perfect fidelity even at ultra low volumes - but two, that there IS CLEARLY a difference even if subtle.

Edited March 16, 2004 by DrJ

[BruceH]

Did anyone get Donald Byrd At the Half Note? Available on CD Universe but I haven't seen it in stores yet.

[BFrank]

I thought this wasn't due out until the Fall, but I did a search here and it was in fact due to be released this month.

So..........where is it???

Also, CD Universe notes that it has 3 bonus tracks. If it does, it's not the ones that they listed. Those are all on the "original" 2 CD set. It appears that they have re-ordered the tunes, though.

Edited March 17, 2004 by BFrank

[wesbed]

I finally got around to visiting my local Border's store this evening. I searched through the display and found none of the new RVGs. None. It figures.

I believe my local Border's store has shrunk its number of jazz titles. What used to take up a certain amount of display space now takes up less of the same display space.

Edited March 17, 2004 by wesbed

[BeBop]

I think the three bonus tracks are in comparison to the original LP, though I don't have the LP available to confirm.

Also, if you haven't picked up the 9 March RVGs yet, you can still get them at sale price at CD Universe...and if you choose to have them held until the 23 March RVGs are released, you can save on shipping. (Choose Ship Together option).

[dova]

I basically buy RVG's of titles that I want and don't already own on cd. My listening system costs as much as a nice new Bass Boat, and needless to say the McMaster cds sound quite good at a listening level of 25%. I recently picked up Joe Henderson's In-N-Out on the 1994 release even though I know the RVG is due out soon and it sounds great on my system. I think the RVG concept is over rated and I prefer to pickup the Conn's that come out only once a year. dova

[Jazzmoose]

I prefer to pick up everything, but it ain't gonna happen. Add to that the fact that I keep wasting my lottery budget on CDs...

[Jazzmoose]

By the way, Morganized, I hope you realize that my applause for Dr. J post was in reaction to his comments as he intended, not as you took them. But if not, sorry 'bout that; I didn't mean it as a "yeah, you dirty Morganized!" comment I swear!

[Morganized]

By the way, Morganized, I hope you realize that my applause for Dr. J post was in reaction to his comments as he intended, not as you took them. But if not, sorry 'bout that; I didn't mean it as a "yeah, you dirty Morganized!" comment I swear!

Hi Moose,

No offense taken. I really didn't have a problem with Dr. J's comments either, except to the extent that they came completely out of the blue. Like I said, I have bought my share of duplicate RVG's. Sometimes I like the RVG better than the original and sometimes I don't, but in all instances, I have to turn down the volume on the RVG.

Anyway, no bones to pick with you Moose about your applause........but about that copy of Evolution that Ralphie Boy was selling that you recently beat me to, now that is quite another story!

Take care. I enjoy your post. You are a great asset to this board.

[scottb]

I getting a little steamed now!! (and not in a good way)

It's 8 days after their release and my RVGs are no where to be found!!

I preordered form deepdiscountcd.com and I got an email that they shipped about 5-6 days ago but still no discs!!

I have never heard Sweet Honey Bee or Goin' West so I am even more anxious to get them.

[Quincy]

I getting a little steamed now!!  (and not in a good way)

I preordered form deepdiscountcd.com and I got an email that they shipped about 5-6 days ago but still no discs!!

I've had the same thing happen with orders from them.

They mail 4th class (or the media rate) from CT I believe, so on occasion it's taken discs 8 days to arrive to the west coast. With luck you'll get them tomorrow, but it might take 2 more days.

Between mostly slow service and backorders that are never filled I've given up on them. Well, maybe not the DVD site.

Edited March 18, 2004 by Quincy

[Big Al]

Has anyone seen the picture of McLean & Tolliver on the inside of Right Now!??? Man, what's the deal with Jackie's teeth?!?!?!?

Not that it matters; this is probably my favorite McLean date, and I'm so glad it's finally available domestically!

Edited March 18, 2004 by Big Al

[BFrank]

I prefer to pick up everything, but it ain't gonna happen. Add to that the fact that I keep wasting my lottery budget on CDs...

JM, you have a MUCH better chance of enjoying your CDs than you do of winning the lottery! B)

A wise investment.

[J.A.W.]

I getting a little steamed now!! (and not in a good way)

It's 8 days after their release and my RVGs are no where to be found!!

I preordered form deepdiscountcd.com and I got an email that they shipped about 5-6 days ago but still no discs!!

Some of my orders from Deep Discount never arrived. Their customer service is not very efficient and rather slow, but they refunded me in the end. I don't think I'll order from them again.