Placement of speaker cables affects the sound?

[Larry Kart]

Any thoughts on this problem, which may not be a problem, would be welcome. My sound reproducing equipment (from the bottom up: Marantz integrated amp, mostly useless these days Yamaha tape deck, Marantz CD player, Rega turntable) is placed on 4-shelf QS-Entree stand between two B&W 805 speakers, each elevated on its heavy-duty stand. My speaker cables (six feet of each) are Flatline Gold.

Some time ago, I read that it’s not a good idea to let your cables trail along the floor, then up to the speaker terminals, so I moved the cables up off the floor and thought I heard an improvement. Eventually I ended up taping the cables along the outer edges of the top layer (about waist high) of the QS equipment stand, from where they run to the speaker connections, and long have been happy with the seemingly airy, albeit somewhat treble-y at times, resulting sound.

But, as usual, there’s a worm in the apple, which manifests itself in a quirky recording — in this case a version of Mozart’s K. 452 Quintet for Piano and Winds with Robert Levin on fortepiano. There’s an obvious balance-of-volume problem with that recording, given the inherently reticent nature of the fortepiano versus the winds and the apparent decision of the engineer not to shove a mic into the fortepiano's innards, but while that difference in the volume levels did seem extreme, I thought I had no choice but to accept it (because the playing as a whole is excellent) or just junk the recording.

But then a little birdie said, “Why not lower the speaker cables from the edge of the top layer of the equipment stand and tape them to the edge of the second layer down from the top?” I did, and the sound of the fortepiano became more prominent in relation to the winds, this because (I’m fairly sure) of an increase in bass response and also in what I'll call the "compactness" of that response. I tried taping the speaker cables to the edge of the third layer down; the fortepiano became more prominent still, close to ideal. I tried the edge of the fourth layer down (about three inches from the floor); sound was too bass-y now and also kind of clotted, lacked “airiness.” Back to the third level down from the top.

So in one sense I don’t have a problem. But even so, what’s going on here? Why does the height at which the speaker cables are placed in relation to the speaker themselves affect/“color” the nature of the sound when those cables connect to the same terminals in the backs of the speakers no matter at what height the cables run horizontally before those connections are made?

One could understand the negative effects of electronic devices interfering with each other, as in the presence of a “hum” or a “buzz,” but that’s not what’s happening — rather, as I said, the treble-bass balance of the sound (plus some sense of “airiness” versus "compactness") alters depending on the height at which the cables are placed. Or am I just imagining effects that don’t in fact exist?

That last might seem likely, but why then I wonder are the effects I think I hear consistent in their direction, so to speak — that is, the higher the cables, the more treble-y and airy the sound, the lower the cables, the more bass-y and “compact” the sound, until, at the lowest level, the sound gets too bass-y and a bit scrunched up/muddy. Maybe someone should stage an intervention?

[Chuck Nessa]

LOL!!!!!!

[Larry Kart]

LOL!!!!!!

Knew I could count on you.

[Scott Dolan]

" Or am I just imagining effects that don’t in fact exist?" - Larry Kart

*dingdingdingdingding*

...since Mr. Nessa beat me to the most appropriate response.

There may be a source-based problem, but your speaker cable placement has nothing to do with it.

Cable elevation is the most snakiest of snake oil.

[Stefan Wood]

I thought carpet had an effect on the wires as opposed to hardwood floors?

Btw, snakeoil are the cable elevating sticks that are sold by certain vendors.

[Scott Dolan]

I thought carpet had an effect on the wires as opposed to hardwood floors?

Btw, snakeoil are the cable elevating sticks that are sold by certain vendors.

Neither have an effect. Unless you're rubbing your feet on the carpet right next to where your cables are sitting. And even then the claim is rather dubious.

And cable elevators are as outrageous as it gets.

[Larry Kart]

Well, at least I haven't spent a dime on cable elevation, unless you count the cost of some sticky tape.

[sonnymax]

Audiophile sticky tape?

[erwbol]

I had never heard of cable elevation and the special elevator sticks. Thank you for giving me a good hearty laugh first thing Monday morning.

[Stefan Wood]

Go to the Mapleshade website and see what they "offer" in the latest and greatest in cable elevation technology. Notched cut blocks of wood.

[TedR]

I knew it! My whole system is in the basement. Dammit!

[erwbol]

I knew it! My whole system is in the basement. Dammit!

The Dutch polder I live in is a few meters below sea level. Luckily, my apartment is on the third (top) floor!

Edited June 2, 2014 by erwbol

[Stefan Wood]

Oh that's not good; optimal cable dynamic range can only occur on the 4th floor of a mid level high rise, and only if your place is facing north.

[Kevin Bresnahan]

Try an experiment with someone behind a sheet moving the wires up and down as you listen to the music. If you can hear an active shift, maybe you're onto something.

Even if you do hear a shift, I would still blame something in your rack rather than the speaker wire. Are the wires being taped up near AC power cords (not that I think it matters - just curious)?

[Larry Kart]

Try an experiment with someone behind a sheet moving the wires up and down as you listen to the music. If you can hear an active shift, maybe you're onto something.

Even if you do hear a shift, I would still blame something in your rack rather than the speaker wire. Are the wires being taped up near AC power cords (not that I think it matters - just curious)?

I don't know anyone crazy enough to collaborate in the behind-the-sheet experiment, at least not without laughing so hard that they might knock things down.

As for whether I hear a difference, one of my standard "test" CDs is the title track of Louis Smith's "Smithville" -- because it's such a vividly great RVG recording job (albeit great of his style) and because it proceeds in layers: first, solo Paul Chambers walking, then only Chambers and Smith, then with Sonny Clark and Art Taylor and finally Charlie Rouse added. My key tests here (or if you will "tests") are the entry of Taylor's ride cymbal (its relative prominence and crispness in relation to the rest) and the relationship (spatially and in relative prominence) of Clark's comping to the rest. I swear that with the cables on the lowest level (as described in my initial post) Taylor's ride cymbal is barely distinguishable, while with the speaker cables one level up it is just about where it should be in relation to everything else; likewise with Clark's comping (which I feel should be somewhat, but only somewhat, spatially separable from what it supports), though Clark's comping doesn't virtually disappear with the cables at the lowest level the way Taylor's ride cymbal does.

I'm pretty sure that unless I'm imagining all this, it has something to do -- as you suggest -- with something in my rack interacting with something else. The simplest way to test this, with or without the sheet, would be to leave everything else as is and, say, switch the positions of the amp and the CD player and see if I hear any difference. But that's annoyingly hard to do physically by myself -- the space between the rack and the back wall of the basement is awkwardly tight and both those units weigh a ton -- so I think I'll just live with things as they are. Besides, there are practical reasons for keeping the CD player at the second level from the top; I don't want to have to kneel down on the floor every time I put in or take out a CD.

Or I could run those speaker cables through my rectum.

[Scott Dolan]

Go to the Mapleshade website and see what they "offer" in the latest and greatest in cable elevation technology. Notched cut blocks of wood.

Mapleshade is one of the premier snake oil dealers in the world. But, I will give them credit, their furniture is quite beautiful.

Try an experiment with someone behind a sheet moving the wires up and down as you listen to the music. If you can hear an active shift, maybe you're onto something.

Even if you do hear a shift, I would still blame something in your rack rather than the speaker wire. Are the wires being taped up near AC power cords (not that I think it matters - just curious)?

I don't know anyone crazy enough to collaborate in the behind-the-sheet experiment, at least not without laughing so hard that they might knock things down.

As for whether I hear a difference, one of my standard "test" CDs is the title track of Louis Smith's "Smithville" -- because it's such a vividly great RVG recording job (albeit great of his style) and because it proceeds in layers: first, solo Paul Chambers walking, then only Chambers and Smith, then with Sonny Clark and Art Taylor and finally Charlie Rouse added. My key tests here (or if you will "tests") are the entry of Taylor's ride cymbal (its relative prominence and crispness in relation to the rest) and the relationship (spatially and in relative prominence) of Clark's comping to the rest. I swear that with the cables on the lowest level (as described in my initial post) Taylor's ride cymbal is barely distinguishable, while with the speaker cables one level up it is just about where it should be in relation to everything else; likewise with Clark's comping (which I feel should be somewhat, but only somewhat, spatially separable from what it supports), though Clark's comping doesn't virtually disappear with the cables at the lowest level the way Taylor's ride cymbal does.

I'm pretty sure that unless I'm imagining all this, it has something to do -- as you suggest -- with something in my rack interacting with something else. The simplest way to test this, with or without the sheet, would be to leave everything else as is and, say, switch the positions of the amp and the CD player and see if I hear any difference. But that's annoyingly hard to do physically by myself -- the space between the rack and the back wall of the basement is awkwardly tight and both those units weigh a ton -- so I think I'll just live with things as they are. Besides, there are practical reasons for keeping the CD player at the second level from the top; I don't want to have to kneel down on the floor every time I put in or take out a CD.

Or I could run those speaker cables through my rectum.

Larry, I say this time and time again. Our ears and brains have an uncanny ability to conspire against us. If you can't do a blind test, then simply "find" the "ideal" position for your speaker wires, and be done with it. You won't be able to change your mind at this point without a blind test. So just placate it. Don't risk hurting yourself or damaging your equipment by moving components around.

[mjzee]

I think if Larry hears it, he hears it. Why deny it?

[jazzbo]

Because then you can't put on your Enlightened Know it All hat.

[Scott Dolan]

I think if Larry hears it, he hears it. Why deny it?

Because positioning height of speakers cables does nothing to change the signal passing through them.

Many people claim to hear a lot of things they can't, but once they get it in their mind it's impossible to get out without a blind test. There are people out there who claim they can hear the difference between a CD and a lossless file ripped from it. We can convince ourselves of anything, really.

None of this is meant as a put down of Larry. Could happen to anyone.

As Kevin and I have both stated, there may be a problem, but it's coming from a component, not the speaker cable positioning.

[Scott Dolan]

Because then you can't put on your Enlightened Know it All hat.

Bad thread for you so far, isn't it? Folks busting on both cable elevators AND Mapleshade.