Why I hate Miles

[jazzbo]

That's an interesting quote, thanks for sharing it.

[king ubu]

John, just wanted to let you know I'm still here (after having been in hospital since Friday, therefore my late reply), and that I still dig Miles a lot ( ) and always will, for similar reasons expressed by Lon early on in this discussion: Miles was pretty essential in bringing me to jazz, he was one of the very first musicians that I deeply immerged and felt an urge to explore and read about - and of course obviously, I "get" him.

I had no time yet to read through the whole thread, but this seems to be a pretty interesting discussion, so thanks for starting it!

ubu

[connoisseur series500]

Let me interrupt this thread for a second to ask if anyone here has an extra "Complete Live at the Plugged Nickel" box set for sale.

I'm eyeballing a few on ebay, but would prefer to buy from Couw since he hates the guy!

[couw]

Ubu, hope you're okay. I would certainly appreciate to read more of your comments here, as... you made me do it!!

please do read through this thread, it's the damn best Miles commercial I ever saw. In spite of the title. Go figure... great board I guess.

[dave9199]

"Hey Miles, remember when you did that album 'Kind Of Blue'?"

"Yeah?"

"That was awesome."

[RainyDay]

dave9199 Posted: Feb 23 2004, 03:56 PM 

"Hey Miles, remember when you did that album 'Kind Of Blue'?"

"Yeah?"

"That was awesome." 

I hope Chris Farley is digging Miles from his trailer down by the river.

Edited February 24, 2004 by RainyDay

[Guy Berger]

Let me interrupt this thread for a second to ask if anyone here has an extra "Complete Live at the Plugged Nickel" box set for sale.

I'm eyeballing a few on ebay, but would prefer to buy from Couw since he hates the guy!

Paul,

You can probably buy it for pretty cheap via Columbia House.

Guy

[chris olivarez]

Well if there was ever a case of "to each their own" this is it. Over the years I'm finding other players that I prefer over Miles but Miles will always have a place in my record collection and my heart. All his life Miles followed his own musical vision

and was his own man for better or worse and I respect him absolutely for it.

[jazzbo]

"Miles Davis owes me ten bucks!"

[couw]

I stumbled on this quote of Miles: "That was my gift - having the ability to put certain guys together that would create a chemistry and then letting them go; letting them play what they knew, and above it."

don't know where, don't know when, but it fits with the discussion here.

[king ubu]

I read through the whole thread this morning - very very interesting, and thanks a lot for starting this discussion, John! And thanks everybody (particularly Jim, Free For All, John L, also Simon Weil, and everybody I forget ) for your insightful comments.

Now of course, we cannot argue as far as taste is concerned. I personally love Miles' harmon mute sound, as well as his open horn sound. I love his ballad playing, his uptempo playing is incredible too (I'm spinning "Motel" from the "Ascenseur pour l'echafaud" soundtrack right now - mute and up and great!), and as has been noticed, his mastery of the wide range of medium tempos is astonishing.

I have nothing to add to what Jim wrote about Miles' style (fluffs and all) and timing. His time is something I can marvel about without end. Take "Steamin'", take "'Round About Midnight", take anything... the influence of Ahmad Jamal has been stated, I think, but as far as Miles' coming into his own in the mid-fifites is concerned, I think it can not be overvalued.

Now about his band-leading - I guess it would not be right (this has again been stated before, but I try to express my own opinion here, also to let John know what I feel)..., so: I guess it would not be right to just consider Miles a "catalyst". He was that, as much as you can, I believe, but he was also much more than that. He was an opportunist, maybe, but not the usual opportunist going with the times, floating along. He was the kind of person who had the nose to smell novelty, to smell possibility, to smell future, indeed (as far as music goes, of course). That quote about the band playing him and after a week he playing them in THEIR style is a case in point, I think. He was able to make his musicians playing better or different than they were without him. He saw their potential, he saw abilities they themselves might not have been knowing of, and he knew ways to make them fulfill his expectations. And in this way, the thought of Miles or not Miles on "Bitches Brew" is a thought that's not thinkable - that music would not have been there without Miles.

Also, with this in mind, you cannot say he had no hand in creating the new "styles" of jazz he did create. Catalyst he might have been (another aspect of this is seen if you have a look at the "fusion" bands that emerged out of Miles bands, or were founded by Miles sidemen: Tony Williams Lifetime, Weather Report, Return to Forever, Mahavishnu Orchestra - some of the most stunning, freshest sounding music of that time, I think), but he had his own part, and no small one, I think, in the development of the music we call jazz, too. He might have been an innovator thanks to his gift of anticipating things, without him really trying to be so innovative (well, later on he might have consciously tried, and in the eighties he somehow gave up trying, but in the fifties and sixties, I'm not so sure all he did was consciously achieved).

About Miles "street credibility", his wise guy style etc, I think Jim has made some very good points. You never can decide on that "inside"/"outside" thing, indeed. I read his autobiography a long time ago, but this double-sided image was one he also played with, and was one of the strongest impressions made on me while reading.

Another point: regarding the "romanticism" of Miles (see Simon Weil's posts and the "attacks" against him: I don't see a way to look at Miles without looking at the social development of the US in the sixties and seventies, really. His will to play the rock audiences, to be sort of another Sly Stone etc certainly has to do with the development of the society as a whole, and with the crisis of the (traditional) "jazz scene" in the same years. He was looking for new ways, new directions (not only in music, but also in style, clothing etc) in a changing society.

Here I might add that I am not yet as fully into electric Miles as into the fifties/sixties Miles, but I have almost all of his official releases (also recently got the JJ box and LOVE it), and I really love that music! I have been exploring Miles pretty much in a chronological way, and this has helped me understand his going electric right from the start. Also, as has been noted, his chops around the Fillmore dates, are incredible, and as good as any jazz trumpet players' chops, I dare say.

I guess this sums up some of my thoughts about Miles. Hope you can follow.

ubu

[7/4]

He was the kind of person who had the nose to smell novelty, to smell possibility, to smell future, indeed (as far as music goes, of course).

I thought he was using his ears!

[rockefeller center]

But no question he was also a great opportunist as you indicate, and he chose his associations not only based on musical merit but also with an eye toward being on the cutting edge. But still that's ultimately an incredible gift or talent - to be able to get it right in predicting who's going to be one of the movers and shakers in the future, almost without fail, every single time. For example, there were a host of great tenor players in the mid-60's, but Davis didn't choose just anyone, he chose Wayne Shorter - arguably the greatest mind on his instrument to emerge from that era next to Coltrane. It simply CAN'T have been luck or "being in the right place at the right time" that could explain him coming up with so many bandmates who were only later recognized as all-time greats.

Addition re Shorter: If I'm not mistaken, around the time Coltrane left Davis' band, Wayne Shorter called Davis upon Coltrane's recommending him. Would he have hired Shorter if Coltrane hadn't recommended him? Maybe.

[couw]

Building up on that and as long as I'm nibbling at the statue, how much of the Miles legend is truth and how much is simply ascribed to the hero? It seems to me Miles is often treated as a rock-icon with all the uncompromising worshipping that belongs to that. I have obviously never read any books on the man, but to those who have: do you get the idea that much of what is written or said is simply credited to him out of awe.

I hope I'm making sense here. Nothing of this is meant to be a personal attack on anyone. I am just trying to find out why people seem to revere Miles whereas I am appalled by his playing so much that I cannot start to listen for all the rest in any depth.

[catesta]

Making perfect sense couw.

[Simon Weil]

Building up on that and as long as I'm nibbling at the statue, how much of the Miles legend is truth and how much is simply ascribed to the hero? It seems to me Miles is often treated as a rock-icon with all the uncompromising worshipping that belongs to that. I have obviously never read any books on the man, but to those who have: do you get the idea that much of what is written or said is simply credited to him out of awe.

I hope I'm making sense here. Nothing of this is meant to be a personal attack on anyone. I am just trying to find out why people seem to revere Miles whereas I am appalled by his playing so much that I cannot start to listen for all the rest in any depth.

Well, nibble at a statue (unless it's made of something kind of edible) and you won't do your teeth any good. But...

You're talking about his public presentation, his style - which was kind of outlaw chic, in a certain kind of way. Doubtless he knew what he was doing when he presented himself as one finger in the eyes of the whites. He could be nasty - in his treatment of the audiences and whatever - but I imagine he understood that a certain amount of rejection by him only made him more attractive, "dangerous".

If you were going to say that his style pulled people in, but you don't hear anything in his music, that would be fine. It would just be a variant on "all style, no substance". But actually you said his style pulls people in and you're appalled by his playing.

So I'm looking for an element of his personal style which appals some people - and wondering if you're picking that up in the music. "So What", as a title just about sums up the contemptuous attitude Miles was capable of. But then we'd be back to Miles and his personal demons.

Yeah...So What...And...Thanks, Ubu.

Simon Weil

[Pete C]

"So What", as a title just about sums up the contemptuous attitude Miles was capable of.

Or maybe it's just onomatopoeia.

Edited February 24, 2004 by Pete C

[Simon Weil]

"So What", as a title just about sums up the contemptuous attitude Miles was capable of.

Or maybe it's just onomatopoeia.

Or both...Here's something I wrote in 1999:

Message 7 in thread

From: Simon Weil (simonweil@aol.com)

Subject: Re: Miles compositions?

Newsgroups: rec.music.bluenote

Date: 1999/09/10

I wrote:

<<.... there is one one tune that strikes me as very much Miles's. That is *So

What*. The title itself, with that edgy contempt

so very typical of Miles, must surely be his.>>

Rmidnight58@webtv.net replied:

> I would have thought so. I just

>bought a cd -  Gerry Mulligan Quartet featuring Chet Baker plus

>Chubby Jackson Big Band - Featuring Gerry Mulligan. I was surprised to

>see the 12th song listed as - So What - the tunes recorded in '50, '52

>and '53. "nothing new under the sun" 

Right, but if you look at the way that the tune uses the two note signature,

dah duh ( "So What" in notes), it is effectively an inversion of "Amen".That

is, whereas in a church service (or the derivative in Jazz) the preacher

(soloist)  would say something and the chorus would affirm it by saying Amen -

Here the chorus responds with a negation "So What". It's kind of witty - and I

think very much in line with the melancholy, introverted feel of the record. In

a melancholy mood, one is in a negative rather than affirmative state of mind.

In a sense, Miles is playing the devil's role here -  because in things like

Goethe's Faust the devil is a "spirit of negation". And this is kind of

interesting when one remembers how Miles later styled himself the Prince of

Darkness. At any rate, I'm pretty sure there's a lot of Miles in the way this

track is constructed.

Simon Weil

Have fun.

Simon Weil

[couw]

If you were going to say that his style pulled people in, but you don't hear anything in his music, that would be fine. It would just be a variant on "all style, no substance". But actually you said his style pulls people in and you're appalled by his playing.

So I'm looking for an element of his personal style which appals some people - and wondering if you're picking that up in the music. "So What", as a title just about sums up the contemptuous attitude Miles was capable of. But then we'd be back to Miles and his personal demons.

I think your on the wrong track in trying to understand my words. I don't hear his demons and are then appaled by that. It doesn't go that deep. I simply don't like his tone.

I was building up on RockC's remark that it was actually Trane who suggested Wayne and not Miles's choice alone as DrJ suggested. My idea was that maybe a lot of cool stuff is attributed to Miles and often Miles alone, whereas the actual picture is probably much more diverse. A sort of aggregation of action around the central hero. Like watching the Ken Burns documentary

This has admittedly little to do with my initial post but much more with the responses in this thread. I don't think people here are uncritical hero-worshippers, far from it! It just occurred to me that there is a lot of stuff that's being attributed to Miles and I wonder whether it's all true, or rather a little spice to the story. It's an extension of the originator/facilitator discussion in this thread I suppose.

[couw]

that's a cool observation on the "so what" - "amen" thing!

[Chrome]

Based on my experiences here, I would bet somebody could turn up info on what Miles' band mates thought of his playing, etc. ... kind of an expert opinion on the matter.

[Chrome]

... not that our fine posters here aren't experts, of course.

[jazzbo]

And "It Ain't Necessarily So" (which I think was a melodic influence on "So What") is how I feel about some of the comments in this thread!

[RainyDay]

If you were going to say that his style pulled people in, but you don't hear anything in his music, that would be fine. It would just be a variant on  "all style, no substance". But actually you said his style pulls people in and you're appalled by his playing.

So I'm looking for an element of his personal style which appals some people - and wondering if you're picking that up in the music. "So What", as a title just about sums up the contemptuous attitude Miles was capable of. But then we'd be back to Miles and his personal demons.

I think your on the wrong track in trying to understand my words. I don't hear his demons and are then appaled by that. It doesn't go that deep. I simply don't like his tone.

I was building up on RockC's remark that it was actually Trane who suggested Wayne and not Miles's choice alone as DrJ suggested. My idea was that maybe a lot of cool stuff is attributed to Miles and often Miles alone, whereas the actual picture is probably much more diverse. A sort of aggregation of action around the central hero. Like watching the Ken Burns documentary

This has admittedly little to do with my initial post but much more with the responses in this thread. I don't think people here are uncritical hero-worshippers, far from it! It just occurred to me that there is a lot of stuff that's being attributed to Miles and I wonder whether it's all true, or rather a little spice to the story. It's an extension of the originator/facilitator discussion in this thread I suppose.

I dug Miles when I was young and before I knew anything about him being an outlaw, or having a particular couture, or whatever. I dug him because he sounded good to me and to my less trained young ear at the time, he sounded like he was doing something entirely different. It was also what pulled me to Colrane. All that other stuff about both of them filtered into my consciousness years later. For someone who grew up listening to Pops, Al Hirt, Harry James, maybe a little Dizzy, etc, Miles represented something fresh and new. Plus, I discovered Miles on my own, not through my dad who was the major influence on my musical tastes when I was a little girl.

[jazzbo]

That's interesting. I can similarly say that I didn't have any antecedants at home to lead me to digging Miles. I got into the electric Miles stuff immediately; I had just come from five years plus in Africa and it sounded so RIGHT to me, it sounded like the African stuff and the British blues band stuff I heard on the air in Swaziland. Miles had that African sound of the band and that wah wah trumpet was almost pure Africa sound to my then young and weirded out by being back in America ears.