Strange BN lp on ebay: re- John Patton

[chewy-chew-chew-bean-benitez]

why is this lp in pic a vangelder stamped memphis to NY spirit on Liberty labels- this cant be for realz can it?

 

Memphis to NY Spirit is only on US lp from 1996 cut by wally or someone, no?  please advise

https://www.ebay.com/itm/LP-JOHN-PATTON-Memphis-To-New-York-Split-BST-84418-Van-Gelder-Germany-NM-to-EX/153854561091?hash=item23d2724b43:g:cCAAAOSwQZFeNvsm

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

omg-  i just noticed it is called Memphis to NY SPLIT.  s-p-l-i-t.

 

oh no- what is this thing?

[chewy-chew-chew-bean-benitez]

So I suppose its a pirate item however could they really replicate the vangelder stamp what do you guys make of that part.  

[sidewinder]

The fact that there is no sleeve is an immediate red flag, to me.

That label looks far too new as well, unlike German Liberty LPs in my collection. Not to mention the far from clear ‘Van Gelder’.

 

[Big Beat Steve]

I am no expert at all on the finer points of the various pressings of BN LPs (a science unto itself, isn't it? ) but I did a quick comparison anyway. I have the two Art Blakey "Orgy in Rhythm" LPs as German Liberty stereo pressings inside a US LIberty jacket (combinations that seem to be not so rare, i.e. using up jackets form one source for vinyl from another).

If this is a boot of fake then whoever reproduced the label did so with extreme diligence as the fonts and even the minor grammar errors of the copyright statement round the edges of the genuine German label were duplicated very acurately. I cannot judge the colors as the digital photos might falsify these anyway. And the catalog numbers are pen-engraved in the dead wax of my LPs too.
However - the RVG in the dead wax of my copies does not read "VAN GELDER" but "RVG STEREO". Have both texts been documented for real by the experts?

[porcy62]

1 hour ago, Big Beat Steve said:

 the RVG in the dead wax of my copies does not read "VAN GELDER" but "RVG STEREO". Have both texts been documented for real by the experts?

Yes

[sidewinder]

This would be intriguing if it is for real. Could it be that Francis Wolff released a master of the session for intended German pressing just before it was put in the can in the US? Possible, I guess. Maybe just a few were released in Germany before they pulled it there too (and before correcting the label).

Edited March 28, 2020 by sidewinder

[Niko]

I looked at that part of the BN discography:

BST 84413   Grant Green - Shades Of Green   1972

BST 84414   Elvin Jones - Merry-Go-Round   1972

BST 84415   Grant Green - The Final Comedown   1972

BST 84416   Bobby Hutcherson - Natural Illusions   1972

BST 84417   Hank Mobley - Thinking Of Home (not released)

BST 84418   John Patton - Memphis To New York Spirit (not released)

BST 84419   McCoy Tyner - Extensions (not released)

BST 84420   Horace Silver Quintet/Sextet With Vocals - All   1972

BST 84421   Bobbi Humphrey - Dig This!   1972

BST 84422   Marlena Shaw - Marlena   1972

BST 84423   Gene Harris Of The Three Sounds   1972

 

And then I looked a bit into discogs... There is a German pressing of the Horace Silver album 84420 (next one to be released) that looks fairly similar to the one on ebay if I look at labels etc

https://www.discogs.com/Horace-Silver-Quintet-Sextet-All-The-United-States-Of-Mind-Phase-3/release/6272324

 

[sidewinder]

Very interesting !

[David Ayers]

This is going to drive us NUTS!

 

 

OK I’m going to call it. German release, 1970. 

[sidewinder]

Checked Harvey Pekar’s notes on the ‘Rare Groove’ LP.  Says no previous release apart from a couple of tracks put out on earlier UK compilations. No mention of a German issue, although it does mention that the release numbering was assigned back in the Liberty era.

[JSngry]

The Made In Germany stamp seems to be a lot deeper than does the Van Gelder one. How easy would it be to after-market the latter? Just a superficial applying of a hot stamp or something? Or vice-versa?

[Niko]

one more that I just stupidly overlooked, McCoy Tyner's Extensions in the same series... This one was originally assigned catalogue number BST 84419 but then issued with a different number BN LA 006 in the US with a minor delay. This German pressing uses the originially assigned number on the LP but then has a US sleeve where the US catalogue number is corrected to BST 84419. This suggests that German production of BN albums was a bit ahead of schedule at this time - and it also explains why the Patton album comes without a sleeve, because they might have been waiting for sleeves to be shipped from the US. Those arrived for the Tyner (albeit with the wrong catalogue number) but not for the Patton. 

https://www.discogs.com/McCoy-Tyner-Extensions/release/10422354

 

[Big Beat Steve]

1 minute ago, JSngry said:

The Made In Germany stamp seems to be a lot deeper than does the Van Gelder one. How easy would it be to after-market the latter? Just a superficial applying of a hot stamp or something? Or vice-versa?

On the German Liberty pressing of "Orgy in Rhythm" that I have the "Made in Germany" stamp also is a lot deeper than the "RVG STEREO" stamp (in fact the "STEREO" is just barely legible).

[JSngry]

1 hour ago, Niko said:

one more that I just stupidly overlooked, McCoy Tyner's Extensions in the same series... This one was originally assigned catalogue number BST 84419 but then issued with a different number BN LA 006 in the US with a minor delay. This German pressing uses the originially assigned number on the LP but then has a US sleeve where the US catalogue number is corrected to BST 84419. This suggests that German production of BN albums was a bit ahead of schedule at this time - and it also explains why the Patton album comes without a sleeve, because they might have been waiting for sleeves to be shipped from the US. Those arrived for the Tyner (albeit with the wrong catalogue number) but not for the Patton. 

https://www.discogs.com/McCoy-Tyner-Extensions/release/10422354

 

So you think they were getting not just master tapes from America, but stampers from Rudy as well?

[Rooster_Ties]

Whatever all images are hosted on eBay’s servers for this uber-mystery, somebody better oughta grab copies of all the pics before they’re all kaput in 60 days (or maybe a whole lot less). Future generations will thank us, for sure!!

[sidewinder]

1 hour ago, Niko said:

one more that I just stupidly overlooked, McCoy Tyner's Extensions in the same series... This one was originally assigned catalogue number BST 84419 but then issued with a different number BN LA 006 in the US with a minor delay. This German pressing uses the originially assigned number on the LP but then has a US sleeve where the US catalogue number is corrected to BST 84419. This suggests that German production of BN albums was a bit ahead of schedule at this time - and it also explains why the Patton album comes without a sleeve, because they might have been waiting for sleeves to be shipped from the US. Those arrived for the Tyner (albeit with the wrong catalogue number) but not for the Patton. 

https://www.discogs.com/McCoy-Tyner-Extensions/release/10422354

 

That sounds a plausible theory. It is possible I guess that they never officially got out of the production plant and emerged later on into the ‘market’ as a result of a clearout.

[Big Beat Steve]

This also might be an explanation for the missing cover (though this is a wild guess and I do not have any definite proof). Back in those days it seems to have been customary in Germany to issue promo copies (e.g. to radio stations or wherever ..) without the actual covers but in neutral, white covers. During my fleamarket rounds through the years I bought a couple of late 50s 10" jazz LPs as German promo pressings (on the Mercury and Odeon labels - Odeon being German Columbia) that came in recycled white covers (and I have seen quite a handful more of these white-cover promos that were of no interest to me). Looking inside the covers you can see the front cover of the actual LP cover that they had just turned inside out and recycled for these promos, with a center hole punched in the cover to show the label. OTOH these LPS do have white promo labels - which is not the case of that BN LP.

[sidewinder]

Just checked the pics against my German Liberty of Duke Pearson ‘How Insensative’ (84344). Correlates pretty well - even duplicates the ‘r’ running off the outside of the label. No sign of the hand engraved release number ‘BST- etc’ on the runout though. If this thing is for real, it must literally be a prototype !

The lack of promo sleeve as BBS says, plus absence of runout scribbling does imply some element of uncertainty though.

’London Jazz Collector’ should do a forensic article on this one ! 

Edited March 28, 2020 by sidewinder

[Big Beat Steve]

6 minutes ago, sidewinder said:

The lack of promo sleeve as BBS says, plus absence of runout scribbling does imply some element of uncertainty though.

If the LP had a "neutral" promo cover of the type I described it may just have gotten thrown away. It cannot have looked like a keeper to anyone. What puzzles me more is that the BN LP on eBay does not have any indication of being a promo. How did BN promo LPs from that period usually look?

BTW, I noticed the "r" runing off the label too (it's like that on my Orgy in Rhythm LPs too).

[sidewinder]

I remember JohnS on this board saying that he had a couple of white label BN promos but US ones of a slightly earlier vintage - picked up for a pittance at Mole. They were hand scribbled on the label. No idea what a German promo might look like.

Edited March 28, 2020 by sidewinder

[JSngry]

Too bad there's not better pictures of the entire record. A 50 year old promo that has no sleeve would surely be at least a little scuffy by now?

If this is real, though, I do like the possibility that the record was supposed to be named "Split" instead of "Spirit". That makes just a little more sense?

[sidewinder]

LJC’s musings on German Liberty Blue Note..

https://londonjazzcollector.wordpress.com/record-labels-guide/blue-note-europe/

The absence of the numbering in the runout leaves me unconvinced. If RVG shipped them a metal master, surely this would have been scribed on there?

[Kevin Bresnahan]

If I were a bigger fan of this date, I'd grab it. Less $100 delivered to the US for a rarity like this? I'm surprised no one has bought it yet.

Edited March 28, 2020 by bresna

[chewy-chew-chew-bean-benitez]

5 hours ago, sidewinder said:

This would be intriguing if it is for real. Could it be that Francis Wolff released a master of the session for intended German pressing just before it was put in the can in the US? Possible, I guess. Maybe just a few were released in Germany before they pulled it there too (and before correcting the label).

thats what i thought for two seconds but then i thought.... no way, that would be too amazing a discovery 

or maybe youre right maybe this was the rare BN find of the century- did one of you guys buy it?  i payed a lot on the 1996 lp (two copies- one on ebay, after having a cheaper warped one)

[sidewinder]

22 minutes ago, chewy-chew-chew-bean-benitez said:

or maybe youre right maybe this was the rare BN find of the century- did one of you guys buy it?  i payed a lot on the 1996 lp (two copies- one on ebay, after having a cheaper warped one)

Relax - it’ll shortly be on its way to the UK. 

I was sceptical at first but on one of those photos when blown up I could just make out the ‘BST’ number in the runout. To be honest, I’ve had $100 worth of entertainment this afternoon just speculating about it. I was also reminded how stunning these German Libertys can sound when I spun the Duke Pearson earlier on so if all goes well it’ll probably be a big upgrade on the Rare Groove.

I will post some better pictures of it on here when it arrives, all being well. 

Edited March 28, 2020 by sidewinder