Abuse of the Phrase "Bossa Nova" by Gringos in the Early 1960s

[Brad]

3 hours ago, Teasing the Korean said:

If you've been paying attention to the news for the last several years, particularly with regard to cultural issues, you would know that the topic is very relevant today.

In broad general terms, yes. In this case, no. 

[Teasing the Korean]

1 hour ago, Brad said:

In broad general terms, yes. In this case, no. 

I respectfully disagree. 

[Brad]

13 minutes ago, Teasing the Korean said:

I respectfully disagree. 

Of course 

[GA Russell]

On 5/23/2021 at 11:23 AM, Teasing the Korean said:

There is similar confusion about Brasilian culture.  For example, Oscar Peterson's Soul Espagnole is made up of primarily Bossas from Brasil, which of course is not a Spanish-speaking country.

 

Speaking of which, is "gringo" a word used in Brazil, or only in Spanish speaking countries?

[Teasing the Korean]

27 minutes ago, GA Russell said:

Speaking of which, is "gringo" a word used in Brazil, or only in Spanish speaking countries?

Ruy Castro uses it in his book Bossa Nova, which is the best book I've read on the history of the music.

[GA Russell]

17 minutes ago, Teasing the Korean said:

Ruy Castro uses it in his book Bossa Nova, which is the best book I've read on the history of the music.

TTK, since it's good enough for you, I've ordered the book!

[Teasing the Korean]

8 minutes ago, GA Russell said:

TTK, since it's good enough for you, I've ordered the book!

You will need to slog through a lot of names you likely won't recognize.  Many of the names mentioned early on will be referenced later in the book.  

However, it really does a great job in giving the whole cultural background of Bossa and where Brasil was in the postwar era. It also reads like a novel, as opposed to a dry, academic treatise.  

[Daniel A]

6 hours ago, Teasing the Korean said:

True, but Charlie Byrd, Herbie Mann, Paul Winter, and others were pursuing Bossa independently of Getz and possibly before Getz. (I don't have all the dates in front of me.)

Bud Shank seems to have been early out, but it didn't prevent him from releasing "American" bossa nova recordings later on. That said, I like the bossa tracks on albums like "Bud Shank Meets the Sax Section" from 1966, partly because I think it's one of Bob Florence's better efforts. 

Clare Fischer always seemed to stay closer to "real" bossa nova. 

[Teasing the Korean]

Just now, Daniel A said:

Bud Shank seems to have been early out, but it didn't prevent him from releasing "American" bossa nova recordings later on. That said, I like the bossa tracks on albums like "Bud Shank Meets the Sax Section" from 1966, partly because I think it's one of Bob Florence's better efforts. 

Clare Fischer always seemed to stay closer to "real" bossa nova. 

Agree on both counts.  Maybe because Bud Shank had played something closer to Bossa Nova at one time, he felt freer to be less rigid in his approach later. 

I think Herbie Mann did a lot more mixing and matching later on also.

But again, I think there is a big difference between (1) US artists doing a US version of Bossa and (2) slapping the words "Bossa Nova" on an album that has zero to do with Bossa, like the Gene Ammons and Barney Kessel albums I noted earlier,.

 

[JSngry]

Exotica! From Rio! Pretend! Why would anybody care, notice, or take offense, this is America!

[mikeweil]

FWIW, here's the German version of that Eydie Gorme hit. At least there is the proper woodblock pattern. It was of an epiemic effect back then.

 

On 24.5.2021 at 9:26 AM, GA Russell said:

My sister was a college student at the time, and she thought that the bossa nova was a dance.

Perhaps this was due to the Eydie Gorme hit.

Over here the Manuela version had a similar effect. When I just played it my wife instantly danced to it, as she knew it from her teens. People danced to anything.

[DMP]

I think I once read that the first time the words “bossa nova” appeared on an American record was on Sonny Rollins LP - “What’s New” - hardly a bossa nova record, it’s all over the place, although a couple of the tracks with Jim Hall have sort of a bn-type beat. (“If Ever I Would Leave You” was recorded only a couple months after “Jazz Samba,” probably before anyone ever heard it.) Whatever, don’t  think Sonny’s name comes up much in any bossa nova discussion, and whatever flirtation he may have had with it, he quickly moved on. 

[JSngry]

Oh, so it WAS a dance, too. A "fad dance" at that!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bossa_Nova_(dance)

http://www.heritageinstitute.com/danceinfo/descriptions/bossa_nova.htm

 

[Teasing the Korean]

2 hours ago, JSngry said:

Oh, so it WAS a dance, too. A "fad dance" at that!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bossa_Nova_(dance

http://www.heritageinstitute.com/danceinfo/descriptions/bossa_nova.htm

If you ever owned the Enoch Light Big Band Bossa Nova album, before you dragged it back to the thrift store like I did, you may have seen that it included an instruction sheet with the dance steps.

The dance was a complete US fabrication, and had zero to do with real Bossa Nova.

I think your top link is missing the closed parenthesis. 

Edited May 28, 2021 by Teasing the Korean

[Big Beat Steve]

On 24.5.2021 at 9:26 AM, GA Russell said:

My sister was a college student at the time, and she thought that the bossa nova was a dance.

Seems like it ...

 

 

 

[JSngry]

20 minutes ago, Teasing the Korean said:

I think your top link is missing the closed parenthesis. 

Oddly enough, it pastes in like that, and manually adding it does not create a live link at all.

Curious...

21 minutes ago, Teasing the Korean said:

The dance was a complete US fabrication, and had zero to do with real Bossa Nova.

But it DID have everything (literally, everything) to do with the real Bossa Nova dance!!!!!

Just as The Monkey had nothing to do with real monkeys, The Mashed Potato had nothing to do with real food, and The Swim had nothing to do with real bodies of water, the dance was a product of commercially projectional American directed self-absorption, which, after all, is what Made America Great, or at least blocked out the parts that made it otherwise.

In other words (but only in this world), what's reality got to do with anything where there's money to be made off a nation of suckers?

Now, let's look a these so-called "fad dances", they're fun!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Novelty_and_fad_dances

I consider it the most tragic failure of my extensive life of failures that I could never get The Monkarena off the ground and onto the floor.

I tried. god knows I tired.

 

[mikeweil]

3 hours ago, JSngry said:

Oh, so it WAS a dance, too. A "fad dance" at that!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bossa_Nova_(dance)

http://www.heritageinstitute.com/danceinfo/descriptions/bossa_nova.htm

 

Rather similar to basic tango steps. I wonder how Brazilian danced to Bossa Nova, If they did.

[JSngry]

It was danced on soft knees that allowed for sideways sways with hip motions.

So...one or two steps away from passing out drunk?

[Teasing the Korean]

2 hours ago, JSngry said:

But it DID have everything (literally, everything) to do with the real Bossa Nova dance!!!!!

Just as The Monkey had nothing to do with real monkeys, The Mashed Potato had nothing to do with real food, and The Swim had nothing to do with real bodies of water, the dance was a product of commercially projectional American directed self-absorption, which, after all, is what Made America Great, or at least blocked out the parts that made it otherwise.

In other words (but only in this world), what's reality got to do with anything where there's money to be made off a nation of suckers?

Now, let's look a these so-called "fad dances", they're fun!

Whatevs.  My point is that the US "Bossa Nova" dance has zero to do with Brasilian Bossa, and that is a fact. 

[JSngry]

"Bossa Nova" is one thing, "Bossa Nova Dance" something else.

Like, "Push" is a verb, "Push Dance" is a noun.

"Twist" is a noun, sometimes, like in a drink recipe", but "The Twist" is a dance that has nothing to do with a drink recipe, and "Peppermint Twist" has nothing to do with a aromatic green leaf. At best, it has to do with a nightclub that fetishized candy canes.

If one is to become upset at the misappropriation of words, one needs to understand what words are being misappropriated. I think it's established precedent in America that you can call anything anything and it's ok, as long as there's a buck to be (possibly) made.

 

[Teasing the Korean]

4 minutes ago, JSngry said:

"Bossa Nova" is one thing, "Bossa Nova Dance" something else.

Like, "Push" is a verb, "Push Dance" is a noun.

"Twist" is a noun, sometimes, like in a drink recipe", but "The Twist" is a dance that has nothing to do with a drink recipe, and "Peppermint Twist" has nothing to do with a aromatic green leaf. At best, it has to do with a nightclub that fetishized candy canes.

If one is to become upset at the misappropriation of words, one needs to understand what words are being misappropriated. I think it's established precedent in America that you can call anything anything and it's ok, as long as there's a buck to be (possibly) made.

 

Whatevs.  My point is that the US "Bossa Nova" dance has zero to do with Brasilian Bossa, and that is a fact. 

[JSngry]

When you call yourself "Teasing the Korean", are you actually teasing an actual Korean (I hope not, such things are to be frowned upon in the strongest possible terms)? Or are you referencing a made-for-profit song from a made-for-profit movie that has no real Koreans (for whom there was zero profit!) in it?

 

[Daniel A]

Just now, JSngry said:

When you call yourself "Teasing the Korean", are you actually teasing an actual Korean (I hope not, such things are to be frowned upon in the strongest possible terms)? Or are you referencing a made-for-profit song from a made-for-profit movie that has no real Koreans (for whom there was zero profit!) in it?

 

"Whatevs.  My point is..."  

His moniker was explained in some thread 10+ years ago, but I couldn't find it when I tried to search for it a while ago. 

 

 

[JSngry]

Oh, I get it, it's a reference to a John Barry thing from Goldfinger. But for some reason, we're now concerned with cultural appropriation from 60 years ago by a user whose ID is based upon cultural appropriation from 45-ish years ago, when really, it's all about what it's always about - money. so...there is one answer to this one question, and it's the same answer to the same question as it applies to a helluva lot more than just American Bossa Nova record-dance. Which I guess, how about "Polynesian" "exotica", no problems there, eh, sailor?

[Teasing the Korean]

27 minutes ago, JSngry said:

Oh, I get it, it's a reference to a John Barry thing from Goldfinger. But for some reason, we're now concerned with cultural appropriation from 60 years ago by a user whose ID is based upon cultural appropriation from 45-ish years ago, when really, it's all about what it's always about - money. so...there is one answer to this one question, and it's the same answer to the same question as it applies to a helluva lot more than just American Bossa Nova record-dance. Which I guess, how about "Polynesian" "exotica", no problems there, eh, sailor?

Exotica was a  contrived genre that created a fantasy of a tropical paradise.  It freely borrowed from jazz, classical, Latin, Brasilian, the South Seas, the Far East, Africa, South America, etc., and put them all in a blender, in varying ratios.  It did not try to pass itself off as being any one of these.

Similarly, mid-century cocktail culture was was using a spirit from the Caribbean - rum -  to create cocktails linked to the south seas.  Pure fantasy and imagination, not based in reality.

By contrast, creating a contrived dance called the "Bossa Nova" in the US at a time when the Brasilian musical genre known as Bossa Nova was at is peak was entirely misleading.

And your dance analogy was flawed.  A starving person would not misinterpret the dance called the Mashed Potato as food, nor would a primatologist confuse the dance called The Monkey with the animal.  By contrast, someone could reasonably confuse the music called Bossa Nova with the dance called the Bossa Nova.

So, I consider there to be a huge difference between exotica as a genre and the Bossa Nova as a dance.  YMMV.  

Edited May 28, 2021 by Teasing the Korean