Abuse of the Phrase "Bossa Nova" by Gringos in the Early 1960s

[Teasing the Korean]

28 minutes ago, GA Russell said:

My copy arrived yesterday!  It's next on my list.

Enjoy! As I mentioned, the early chapters may feel like a slog, but they provide important context for what comes later.  Some of the figures referenced early on will also come back later in the book.

[mikeweil]

There even is a German translation of Castro's book! But I preferred to order the only used copy of the English edition available from amazon.de.

Edited June 5, 2021 by mikeweil

[Big Beat Steve]

Mike, you did well to buy the English edition. I would have done just like you.
I see the German translation of the book (translated directly from the Braziliam-Portuguese edition, it seems) is from the HANNIBAL Verlag. I own several of their German-language translations of musician biographies (Kenny Clarke, Woody Herman, Dexter Gordon as well as Sally Placksin's "Women in Jazz") that were for sale very cheaply at Zweitausendeins years ago. They all are OK but overall rather stiff and stilted and just not quite "in tune" with what you would expect from a bio on music matters such as this.
Music history books like these are a bitch to translate if you want to fully reproduce the feel and atmosphere (German may not be the very best language for this anyway) but overall the ones from Hannibal (at least those I've read) are more mediocre than some (rare) others that are better that I have read.

 

[mikeweil]

4 hours ago, Big Beat Steve said:

Music history books like these are a bitch to translate if you want to fully reproduce the feel and atmosphere (German may not be the very best language for this anyway) but overall the ones from Hannibal (at least those I've read) are more mediocre than some (rare) others that are better that I have read.

My thoughts exactly! German is no jazz lingo. It's simply not hip enough. How would you translate a phrase like "He played his ass off"? 

Add to this the fact that most professional translators are not jazz fans, with all probability .....

Last year I translated S. Duncan Reid's article on the John Handy - Ali Akbar Khan collaboration into German for Jazz Podium magazine. There were no four letter words in it, but still ....

[Teasing the Korean]

On the other hand, I'm sure that biographies on Kraftwerk, Klaus Nomi, and Nina Hagen would work much better in German.

Edited June 6, 2021 by Teasing the Korean

[JSngry]

And a biography about Merle Haggard would be better in English. So get busy, Alex Ross! 

[mikeweil]

32 minutes ago, Teasing the Korean said:

On the other hand, I'm sure that biographies on Kraftwerk, Klaus Nomi, and Nina Hagen would work much better in German.

Yes, by all means!

[JSngry]

What are we saying here, that a bad German writer would be preferable to a good English writer? ( Language, not nationality).

[mikeweil]

Musicians have their own lingo in any language. No matter whether you talk about music, women, or beer. Translating that is often impossible as the general groove is different. For the same reason, most German jazz guys can't play real funky, as their popular music point of reference is rock rather than R & B. The cultural context is very important. 

Just as difficult as translating poetry. You can't just make a literal transfer.

Edited June 6, 2021 by mikeweil

[Teasing the Korean]

21 minutes ago, mikeweil said:

For the same reason, most German jazz guys can't play real funky, as their popular music point of reference is rock rather than R & B. The cultural context is very important. 

I love this drummer.

 

[mikeweil]

4 hours ago, Teasing the Korean said:

I love this drummer.

 

Do you understand the words? 

[Teasing the Korean]

Just now, mikeweil said:

I have two volumes of this!  All German commercials from the 1960s and 70s.

If you've ever tried to grab opening drum breaks from records and loop them, you find that it takes the drummer two beats or so to get into the groove.  The opening drum pattern posted above loops perfectly with zero manipulation.

So don't you ever insult your fellow countrymen again!

8 minutes ago, mikeweil said:

Do you understand the words? 

No!  My grandmother taught me some German as a kid, but I didn't stick with it.  

Is it an airline?

[mikeweil]

19 minutes ago, Teasing the Korean said:

So don't you ever insult your fellow countrymen again!

It's good, just not my cup of tea as far as drumming tastes are concerned.

19 minutes ago, Teasing the Korean said:

Is it an airline?

No, it's a shoe commercial!

Edited June 6, 2021 by mikeweil

[Teasing the Korean]

12 minutes ago, mikeweil said:

It's good, just not my cup of tea as far as drumming tastes are concerned.

No, it's a shoe commercial!

Why would they name a shoe nordwest? Unless it's a false cognate?

[Bluesnik]

On 6/5/2021 at 11:48 PM, mikeweil said:

There even is a German translation of Castro's book! But I preferred to order the only used copy of the English edition available from amazon.de.

That's the one I have and want very much (prior to this) to reread soon. I wanted to point out that I also consider this a very good book on bossa nova.

[mikeweil]

2 hours ago, Teasing the Korean said:

Why would they name a shoe nordwest? Unless it's a false cognate?

Nordwest was the name of a wholesale union for shoe retailers.

[Dan Gould]

13 hours ago, mikeweil said:

Nordwest was the name of a wholesale union for shoe retailers.

There's a wholesale union for retailers?  

[mikeweil]

2 hours ago, Dan Gould said:

There's a wholesale union for retailers?  

I am not sure I know the correct English term. It is an organization in the Nothwest of Germany to coordinate retailers buying shoes from manufacturers at better conditions. It still exists, btw.

[Big Beat Steve]

This is what could be translated as a wholesale purchasing cooperative (for retailers, evidently).

 

[JSngry]

Maybe like what Americans of a certain time/place might remember as Affiliated Groceries, on the buying end? A lot of independent grocers banding together to leverage for purchasing power? At one point, if you lived in a small town that had a grocery store, odds were good that it was an Affiliated. Not too many of them left, because Wal-Mart is the small town grocer now, and for all the towns, one store, everybody drives miles instead of minutes.

Or would this have been bigger than that?

[Dan Gould]

Sounds like Ace is the place with the helpful hardware man, only applied to shoes or groceries (definitely never heard of grocery stores using the same concept, though I can imagine in a certain time and place that made a lot of sense.)

[JSngry]

Oh yeah, check it out - I grew up in amsmall town, population 6K, and we had three grocers, four pharmacies, one movie theatre, a JC Penny store downtown, a men's clothing store, a women's "fashion" shop, all that. you'd think you were in a city except everything was small, small, but self-contained, and the community was there to support it. Driving to the next town wasn't really an option, because they'd have their version of the same things. But getting from one town to another was a matter of taking two-lane roads sith intersections, so....not really efficient for routine tasks.

Grocers, we had one Piggly Wiggly, one Brookshire's (strong local-regional chain), and Gray's which was an Affiliated store. Independently owned, and famous for the Shur-Fine brand of anything canned or bagged. They had a meat market too.

Different time, different palce, and yes, segregated water fountains. Yep, still remember that...

Oh yeah, three hospitals! One "major" and two owned by doctors, one of them upstairs in their creaky ca. 1930X office building.

[Dan Gould]

From music native to Brazil to small town USA with buyer's cooperatives and water fountains separated by race, all in a single thread.

I love this place.

[GA Russell]

On 6/5/2021 at 3:24 PM, GA Russell said:

My copy arrived yesterday!  It's next on my list.

Thanks, TTK!  I learned a lot from the book.

Twenty years ago I picked up an EMI/Odeon CD called The Story of Bossa Nova.  I didn't like it.  I pulled it out upon finishing the book, and was now familiar with many of the artists I had not heard of.  I can understand now why Joao Gilberto's style was considered revolutionary.
https://www.amazon.com/Story-Bossa-Nova/dp/B000042O1T/

The drink Guanara is mentioned several times.  It is not on sale at this moment, but will be a Prime Day lightning deal starting at 9:00 pm eastern tonight.
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0083TLAEK

[mikeweil]

On 30.5.2021 at 7:50 PM, Daniel A said:

Mike, with your knowledge on Tjader, do you have a theory as to how he would have known and recorded the tune "Here" a year and a half before Mackay himself? I cannot see any evidence that they played together.

I looked further into this and remembered that Dave Mackay and Vicky Hamilton first recorded "Here" and "Now" on April 1, 1968 for Albert Marx productions. A total of four tracks, which remained unissued until 1983, when they were included on this LP:

Maybe this was a demo, maybe a first session for an album that was never completed - three of the tunes were included on the first Impulse LP of the duo. But since this stuff in 5/4 (or Tom Scott's tune in 7/4) needs some practicing, they might have played them in public, or the demo was passed around. That's how Tjader and others may have learned about it. 

Dave Mackay was in the Hindustani Jazz Sextet with Don Ellis, and a member of his octet and big band, recording on the two Pacific Jazz LPs and the "Pieces of Eight" album that was released posthumously. Hank Levy wrote "Alone" for the Don Ellis big band which basically is a jequibau. and when you slow down two other Mackay/Hamilton tunes, "Pek-A-Boo" and "Jacque The Junkman", they are jequibaus as well.  The guys that studied with Hari Har Rao at the UCLA all were interested in these "new time signatures", and played 5/4 very differently from Brubeck/Desmond (well. that was California, too, and a Darius Milhaud influence): Ellis, Emil Richards, Mackay, Tom Scott ...... Some Brazilians experimented in that direction, too, another gang-type thing: Moacir Santos, Airto, Hermeto Pascoal, Egberto Gismonti ....... 

I love all these things! Much more interesting grooves than the omnipresent "Take Five" groove everybody knows. 

Edited June 22, 2021 by mikeweil